GENETICS IN BREEDING AND PEDIGREE

Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
edited January 2014 in Thoroughbred Breeding
Transferred the off shoot breeding and genetics discussions from the thread: 2014 Foals (page 4 thru page 7) into this new link so that discussion topics are cohesive.
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Comments

  • Apparently, according to Throughbred Champions website, Nobiz like Showbiz was bred to all his half sisters
  • Yoicks! Kind of like the pharoahs?
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited January 2014
    Apparently, according to Throughbred Champions website, Nobiz like Showbiz was bred to all his half sisters
    Yoicks! Kind of like the pharoahs?

    Yup lol
  • It is sad Rachel and Nobiz like Showbiz does sound like the pharaohs. Is that normal?
  • I have no idea, only relation is thru his dam. Guess they really wanted to keep his line going
  • I followed Nobiz like Shobiz. I believe his sire is Albert the Great. Very long, athletic, tall horse. I believe that he switched to turf and did rather well on it. If my memory serves me right. Talk about inbreeding, that's a little too close.
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited January 2014
    Apparently, according to Throughbred Champions website, Nobiz like Showbiz was bred to all his half sisters.
    I have no idea, only relation is thru his dam. Guess they really wanted to keep his line going
    Yoicks! Kind of like the pharoahs?
    It is sad Rachel and Nobiz like Showbiz does sound like the pharaohs. Is that normal?

    I wonder why they want to inbreed her so closely like the Pharaohs or Royals did in the past...bad for the genetic durability of the forthcoming foals indeed! :o(
  • Its not his first season at stud, hes been standing for a while. No idea why they would do this
  • How are these mares his halfs? Am I missing something?
  • Its not his first season at stud, hes been standing for a while. No idea why they would do this


    When i checked on pedigreequery none of the mares had foals by him.
  • I just signed up for Thoroughbred Champions so I didn't know who he was bred to, to see who the mares were, but according to the nicks, I wouldn't call them half sisters, since they don't have the same dam. The closest is Miss Pauline who is 3S x 3D, fairly close, but if breeding, that's about the closest you would want to get. The others are either 4 or 5 generations back. If you look at a lot of pedigrees, there's a lot of inbreeding 4 or 5 generations back, but not to the extent where there's so many crosses. Who knows, maybe certain crosses work well with one another that it might offset any physical issues.
  • Thanks for the pedigree nicks QueenZFan20!
    WOW! the fourth and fifth generation back looks scary to me indeed...especially the fifth generation...it's lit up like a Xmas Tree!...especially with the Nobiz like Showbiz X Miss Pauline! Now I see what you mean Rachel! Why didn't they consider breeding Nobiz to a mare that had minimal common ancestors on the fourth and fifth generation back? Geez! Pharoahs indeed! :o(

  • NobizlikeShobiz is bred to Gone West mares not Stormcat mares, not siblings, tho a lot of cross-breds
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited January 2014
    I just signed up for Thoroughbred Champions so I didn't know who he was bred to, to see who the mares were, but according to the nicks, I wouldn't call them half sisters, since they don't have the same dam. The closest is Miss Pauline who is 3S x 3D, fairly close, but if breeding, that's about the closest you would want to get. The others are either 4 or 5 generations back. If you look at a lot of pedigrees, there's a lot of inbreeding 4 or 5 generations back, but not to the extent where there's so many crosses. Who knows, maybe certain crosses work well with one another that it might offset any physical issues.
    In genetics...it does matter even if it's that far back! You don't only look at the second and third generation back!
    In genetics...when you inbreed you not only emphasize the qualities you desire...you also emphasize bad qualities as well...like adding more spice to an already spicy soup!
  • When it comes to genes which are part of our DNA, the maternal contribution is larger than the paternal. Without getting into it any deeper, if you look on the dam sides of both Nobiz Like Shobiz and the mares there really isn't that much inbreeding, if at all. Most is on the sire side. Mitochrondrial DNA comes from the mother (both sexes carry this DNA) and usually the paternal genes on the X chromosome are deactivated. I'm sure this is standard practice - but when visiting the doctor's office - I believe that's why when giving family history to the doctor, they're always concerned about the maternal side of the family because the DNA she passes on is so influential.
  • The mitochondrial DNA is great for tracking your ancestors over centuries, the millenium and on. Yes, mitochondrial DNA is carried inside the female's egg. The male's sperm does not carry his mitochondrial DNA in his sperm when he fertilizes the egg. The female also plays the role as a "carrier" to various inherited disorders as well...btw diabetes is a mitochondrial disease that is passed on to later generations. I will use another human example as it's the easiest to comprehend...

    Take for example color blindness. This genetic deficiency is carried by the "X" chromosone and is labeled as a sex-linked condition with a high probability in males in general...females can still function with normal color vision with only one "X" chromosone for color blindness...but she is a "carrier" for color blindness. However if the female has two "X" chromosones for color blindness, this female will also suffer the condition. I guess you will understand it as "homozygous" for color blindness...a 100% carrier for color blindness...all her male babies will be color blind and all her female babies will be carriers! Yes, the female does carry an important role in passing on genetic related characteristics...some good and some bad.

    NATIVE DANCER-THE LEGACY OF BRITTLE BONES:
    How do you explain the "Brittle Bone" legacy resulting from indiscriminate breeding of Native Dancer during the mid 20th century? Obviously it resulted in his progeny inheriting soft bones issues. The sire-line pedigree does play an important part in the outcome of later generations due to his ability to breed to several mares in his lifetime...in doing so, he was able to pass the brittle bone issue onto many of his male and female progeny. Please read the following article about Ruffian...
    What made Her (Ruffian) Great Made Her Die
    http://www.reines-de-course.com/ruffian.htm
  • Interesting article, Paniolo_Gal. I was a great fan of Native Dancer; didn't realize the problem with his bones. Wow.

    By the way, hemophilia is also a disease that afflicts only males but is carried and passed down to their sons by women. I guess it must be on the X chromosome because a male with hemophilia cannot pass it to his sons, but all of his daughters would be carriers. (I researched it once for a book I was writing.)
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited January 2014
    RIght on VA_in_CA! Hemophilia is another sex-linked genetic disorder...great example!
    Here's a diagram of how hemophilia is inherited:
    http://www.hemophilia.mu/en/how-do-you-get-hemophilia.html
    Hemophilia in the British Royal Family (Queen Victoria): This shows how one carrier can affect several generations later on! Indirectly, this is a good diagram of how the Nobiz like Showbiz X Miss Pauline fourth and fifth generation could affect later progeny compounded by so much inbreeding!
    http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/Q/Queen_Victoria.jpg

    Did you also know that Alzheimer's Dementia, Parkinson's Disease, deafness & blindness, obesity and cardiovascular diseases/stroke are part of "Mitochondrial dysfunction"? Auwe!

    AN INTERESTING FINDING ON THE EQUINE MALE/SIRE-LINE:
    In horses...Developmental Orthopaedic Disease (DOD) is a genetic predisposition. Certain stallions have been shown to produce progeny with a higher incidence of DOD problems, even though the stallion himself may not be affected. The Native Dancer line is a prime example.

    Yes...there's a lot of genetic & mitochondrial inherited diseases in humans & animals...it gets scary when we humans play "Devil's Advocate" with our horses...especially when we don't pay special attention to the lineage of the sire & dam when breeding! We humans get a choice (usually) of who we marry, etc....our fragile pedigree thoroughbreds do not. :o(
  • I found this article about inbreeding/genetics and how there is no direct linkage based on studies that soundness issues are caused by inbreeding. There are some good comments about how breeding is focused more on speed and precocity than durability and stamina. There's also some interesting comments about how some trainers don't train to the horse's pedigree because of this.

    http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/truenicks/archive/2012/03/02/inbreeding.aspx
  • gotta have durability tho, otherwise there is soundness issues
  • Yes, you have to have durability, but that can be done through proper training, rest, diet, and patience. Old school training and feeding oats, hay, and water are a thing of the past it seems. For the past 30 years or so it's whatever it takes to get them to win and into the breeding shed.
  • yup, its a shame
  • Why was everyone so sure Eight Belles would end up with injuries? Many were concerned for her before she was hurt. I remember reading she was "an accident waiting to happen".
  • cuz of her being by Unbridled's Song, US is talked about as having fragile offspring, but they have great comformation like the grey filly i saw today in the sales and then John Sheriffs has a 3 yr old US colt whose just absolutely gorgeous. its all in the way you train them i guess
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