Lucky Pulpit - Sire of California Chrome

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Comments

  • KMMKMM Member
    I guess we are done. People try to convince others of their point of view all the time. What is discourse about? This is getting silly. I tried to make good with you. We are at a silly standoff. See you. K
  • tincuptincup Member
    Trying to put into context, the comments regarding stud fees. Lucky Pulpit doesn't have much of a record, except for CC. I am trying to put some realism in discussion, as in, don't get your hopes up. Lucky Pulpit is unlikely to get top notch mares; owners have better and more proven choices. Why would they take that financial risk?
    This comment is loaded , top and bottom with problems.
    If you wanted to evaluate lucky pulpits success at stud you would look to his success versus other california studs with like mares. It can be tedious, but the facts are available.
    West of the Mississippi, the country gets big fast.Its not likey anyone would ship the quality of mare to cal for a cal bred and then ship back. Risky and not very smart. Its not likely anyone is going to invest in california because the racing opportunities are so short on the west coast. Emerald hasnt much, Portland nothing, Golden gate is synth and Arizona is vacant. So. Cal. is it and its not enough to support outside investment.
    Cal has plenty of money,far more then most and in a single town far more then Kentucky. We should open our eyes to our own and continue to build a breeding program that can produce world class horses.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Ticup, your comments are more nuanced about Lucky Pulpit's than mine were. I think my simple point is that I was talking about mares in Zenyatta's class being unlikely candidates to be bred to Pulpit. There are good mares that stay in CA and every racing state has incentives for state breds to run in their home state.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Thats right and really the reason LP should be able to hold his fee.
  • KMMKMM Member
    He may need more produce soon to be good to sustain fee. It is not high in scheme of breeding fees. I don't know enough about CA stud fees, I admit, to make the analysis you outlined. I am basically familiar with top rated Kentucky sires, and somewhat with MD sires. Malibu Moon stood inMD a long time until he was proven, and then moved to Kentucky.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Cali suffered some during the synthetic years, both in the quality of racing and in breeding. It takes time to recover from the changes. About the only good thing during that time was a very special Zenyatta.
  • KMMKMM Member
    And to my point, about her class and breeding, she was not a CA bred. But she is a heroine in Sou Cal.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Thats right , and frankly should go without saying.Cal-breds have mostly never been open company competition. Some success, but not on the higher stages. But...it doesnt have to stay that way. With some vision, programs can be created that include asia and the southern hemisphere. Take Coz for instance...if, and its important read IF...a cal farm could incorporate that blood line into california breeding, it could prove to be a difference maker in the years to come.
  • He may need more produce soon to be good to sustain fee. It is not high in scheme of breeding fees. I don't know enough about CA stud fees, I admit, to make the analysis you outlined. I am basically familiar with top rated Kentucky sires, and somewhat with MD sires. Malibu Moon stood inMD a long time until he was proven, and then moved to Kentucky.
    California's highest 2015 stud fee is Unusual Heat's $20,000. Next highest is Acclamation at $15K. James Street, Square Eddie, and Lucky Pulpit stand for $10K. There are two at $6.5K, one at $5.5K, and 10 stallions at $5K. Two stallions stand
    in the $4K range, 16 between $3K and $3,999, 52 between $2K and $2,999. 56 between $1K and $1,999, and five under $1000 (one is free). Fees for 32 stallions are private. So LP's $10K fee is at the higher end for Cali.

    For comparison, Kentucky has more total stallions standing, but fewer at the lower ends. One thng about the horses with low stud fees--I think some of them stand to sport-horse mares rather than to race mares. At least one stands at a farm specializing in colored TBs.
  • @lauraj-cincinnati: Thank you for the research. I was going to do the same but didn't have time. I was pretty sure UH held the top fee at $20,000. He is an old guy and I hope he has a few good years left and doesn't have to be pensioned like Maryland state stud Not For Love. When Tribal Rule died that was a big lost for California too. Papa Clem seems to be up and coming.

    bigherbie commented that $10,000 seemed a hefty stud fee in California. Looking at the above stats , when you realize there are only two other studs in California with a fee above $10,000 and the average is approximately $2,500 (which LP was part of just two years ago) yes $10,000 is a big deal. And if you are a Cal breeder with a nice claimer or maybe an allowance-type mare who do you go to if you can’t afford to ship east? For me, it would be a nice problem to have. LOL

    Oh, I guess you could trailer her up north to Oakhurst in Oregon and breed her to Grindstone, stud fee $2,500, and return to California for the foaling so the resultant foal would qualify as a Cal-bred.
  • edited May 2015
    If I were breeding to race in CA and were willing to take a flyer on a new stallion, I'd think hard about Richard's Kid. Talk about a durable horse. He's standing for $3,000 live foal s/n. He's at Magali Farm in CA.
  • I so agree. He's young, has great conformation, and an extremely nice race record. Now's the time to take advantage of that reasonable fee.
    If I were breeding to race in CA and were willing to take a flyer on a new stallion, I'd think hard about Richard's Kid. Talk about a durable horse. He's standing for $3,000 live foal s/n. He's at Magali Farm in CA.
  • Yes, and IIRC, Casey (I think it was she) has met him several times and has said that he is a sweetheart. All other things being equal, I'd rather breed to a kind stallion than to a crank. Plus, he's well bred; his success on track was no fluke. $3000 is a good deal, and I hope he is successful.
  • Pulmarack is running May 23rd in the Snow Chief Stakes. He will be ridden by Corey Nakatani. He is trained by Jerry Hollendorfer and owned by Mr. and Mrs. Larry Williams.
  • Rousing Sermon is running May 23rd in the Tiznow Stakes. He will be ridden by Rafael Bejarano. He is trained by Jerry Hollendorfer and owned by Mr. and Mrs. Larry Williams.
  • I hope he makes a good showing!
    Rousing Sermon is running May 23rd in the Tiznow Stakes. He will be ridden by Rafael Bejarano. He is trained by Jerry Hollendorfer and owned by Mr. and Mrs. Larry Williams.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Lauraj_in Cincinnati, thanks for all of your research. Put it into context for me CA breeding which is similar to MD stud fees for regional sires. We have more stallions standing I think in MD. Would like to provide same summary that you did. We also get some stallions in MD that are really good candidates because we are on East Coast and MD incentives for MD breds have been improving with some state legislation supporting MD gambling, some of the funds which go to purses and other incentives to MD bred horses who race in MD.
  • Actually, according to the Bloodhorse Stallion Register, California has a lot more: 184 versus 58 (pensioned Nor For Love is still listed, but I've not included him in the total). Fees range from $6000 (Seville, a German-born son of Galileo) to $500, with 12 listed as Private. Again, I would not be surprised if some of these stallions stood to sport mares rather than race mares.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Maryland stallions at stud thoroughbred
  • KMMKMM Member
    Typo
  • KMMKMM Member
    Compared to California, MD does not stand many stallions and stud fees are on low side. Obviously, MD is still devastated from lack of horse racing industry support it suffered since the early 2000s.
  • edited May 2015
    What kind of mares does a $10,000 fee attract in California?

    From a sampling of the mares who foaled a Lucky Pulpit in 2015 at Harris Farms, the below is a short list of the mares bred to Lucky at a $10,000 stud fee.

    Granted the below is a very small sampling.

    Bruheria (El Prado x Miss Withcraft): 7 starts: 1-2-2, $54,120. Lone win was on turf. Including 2015 foal, four recorded progeny, three winners. You have to go back to her second dam for blacktype; Mistress who was the 1983 Champion 2 Yr-old filly in Chile and who produced Carbine Special a blacktype winner of $366,423

    Shorty Jones (Smarty Jones x Xylonia): Unraced. One recorded progeny, 2015 Lucky Pulpit filly. Shorty Jones out of unraced dam. Going back to the fifth dam no blacktype found. Sixth Dam Bayou was foaled in 1954 and was champion 3 year old filly in 1957.

    Don’t Despair (High Brite x Zanie Lanie): 14 Starts: 1-1-3, $21,433. Including 2015 foal, six recorded progeny, the best a Lucky Pulpit mare, Desperate Measures, winner of $112,503. You have to go back to the third dam for blacktype; Edies Sister, stakes-placed.

    Sunny Outcome (Cees Tizzy x Sunny Sara): 5 starts: 2-2-1, $80,000. Including 2015 foal, five recorded progeny, the best a Redattore gelding, Suns Outz, winner of $63,460. Second dam Sunny Sara, has produced three blacktype winners; two were winners of over $200k, and one was a winner of over $335k.
  • That, plus mare owners in the mid-Atlantic have a lot of options within a few hours' drive. California owners are stuck with California mares, pretty much, unless they want to fly or do a long haul by road.

    However, Maryland has more stallions per square mile than California. :-)
  • KMMKMM Member
    :) you did the math?!! Clever.
  • No, I didn't, but Cali's got about 3X more stallions than MD, but it's a lot bigger than three times the area of Maryland.
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