Horse Photographers and Photographs

SallyTSallyT Member
edited January 2015 in Community & Creativity
This is a new thread created to discuss and share your favorite websites for horse photographers, and photographs. Since we need to be aware of copyrights, and abide by site rules and legal issues, photographic images should not be posted unless that are taken by you, OR are public domain, OR with permission from the photographer and credit given to them. If you need information about how to post, see the "Posting Images – Rules & Guidelines" thread at the top of the forum.

I will start by listing Barbara Livingston's twitter account. She just won her third Eclipse award for photography. She posts photos frequently, and you can sign up to follow her if you would like.
https://twitter.com/DRFLivingston/media
«13

Comments

  • Thanks for starting this thread, Sally. I look forward to enjoying lots of great horse pictures and great photography.
  • Another website with a lot of photographs available for purchase is http://photos.bloodhorse.com/Photographers
    Anne M. Eberhardt is a photographer who is listed there- I've notched her work quite often.
  • Here's my humble opinion on the copyright/linking/posting fully credited pictures in a forum or on one's facebook page.

    An example of copyright infringement is taking someone else's photo and selling it as your own to a calendar company or publication such as a magazine or newspaper.

    Sharing a link to a forum or your facebook page isn't harming the photographer and is actually providing exposure to others who wouldn't otherwise know of that photographer. I think no one can see the content on a facebook page that is not posted for the public unless they have been friended by the page owner. Also in the Z Forum I think it's okay because you have to be a member of the Forum to see all the content (? or not? not sure) at least you have to know which thread to look in. To me it's the same as showing someone a picture, possibly on the photographer's own website to a friend on your screen, on your computer. If it's in your own home, there's no problem at all. But maybe you show it to your friend on your laptop or ipad and someone sitting next to you on the bus can see it also. That person wasn't deliberately shown the photo, but they got to see it. Yet no one insists that people sharing pictures on their iphone, or whatever, hold the iphone so that only the intended person can see it. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. To me, posting the picture on your own facebook page is kind of the same thing. That way you can show a friend what so-and-so or such-and-such looks like, the same way you would if the friend were sitting next to you looking at your screen, only the friend lives 3,000 miles away. Sharing on the Forum, giving full credit to the photographer is just sharing with a few more friends. It's saying, "Hey check out this horse. Isn't s/he beautiful, cute, wonderful, whatever? Does that make sense?
  • Thanks for the websites, guys.

    It makes sense to me. I think about it in terms of research projects and presentations in high school and college. Plagiarism is claiming someone else's ideas or work as your own. Teachers and professors require that you cite your sources and give them credit, but they don't require you to hunt down the authors/photographers to ask their permission. As long as people are not claiming ownership of or making money from photos they don't own, I see no issue.
  • SallyTSallyT Member
    edited January 2015
    Everyone has their own opinions. However opinions are not law.

    Here is why sharing a photo that is COPYRIGHTED on a public website or forum without permission is not OK with me.

    I shared some of my photographs here on the forum. Yes I want you to look at them, please enjoy them, go ahead and use one as a desktop if you want, show it to a friend. But do not post my COPYRIGHTED image to a public website without my direct permission. I may or may not give it-depending on the photo.

    Posting a COPYRIGHTED image that you did not take, or get permission to use, on a public website is wrong no matter how you slice it. (legally or ethically). I chose not to share my photos with the universe. I did NOT post any of my images on Facebook (or anyplace else) -but someone else did. Now anyone can use it, however they want to-I no longer have control over my image.

    Buddy said "As long as people are not claiming ownership of or making money from photos they don't own, I see no issue." Please try to understand that the issue is that by using or posting a COPYRIGHTED image that does not belong to you, and has not been made public, to a public place-you have in effect, given it to other people-which is not your right. You have "given away" someone else's property, so they could very well lose money. It's not just about you, "not" making money. Apparently on the ink/ instagram photo of mine that was posted by whomever, when you hover over the photo, it gives photo credit to the poster, not me. Am I OK with that? NOPE.

    The internet has provided limitless opportunities for people to "take" whatever they want (images, music, movies). Why do we need to pay for these things? In the grander scheme of things; Because if the owner of a song, for example, doesn't get any reimbursement for their work it impacts their bottom line. No compensation = no career = no new music. Try to empathize with young musicians trying to break into the business, in order to get some momentum going, not a Taylor Swift superstar, although it applies to everyone. That's why ASCAP began collecting fees.

    For the "little guy" photographer; Some people have spent a lot of time learning their craft, and actually taking their photographs. Not to mention a lot of money on equipment to get their images. If they want to give their images away, by all means, that's their decision. But if a photographer places a watermark or copyright on their images, that is also their choice to NOT give the images away. The internet has complicated the issue a million-fold.

    Why does this matter?
    For me personally, I want to retain ownership of my own photographs for several reasons;
    1) I am not a "professional". But a professional is simply someone who has received compensation for their photograph. While I do not currently have any for sale, it is a distinct possibility in the future. If my photo is already out in the public domain, businesses or individuals will not, or are not likely to purchase them.
    2) As an artist and a teacher, images are very important to me as resources. If I want a reference photograph for a painting/drawing, It is not legal for me to copy (use as a direct reference) a COPYRIGHTED published photograph. As an example-the National Duck Stamp folks run a contest every year with very clearly stated rules. You are NOT permitted to even submit any artwork that uses a photograph, that is not yours to use, of the bird as a reference. (Think of books such as Audubon Filed Guides ) Why? Because they don't want to wind up being sued.
    3) I have been taking photographs for over 40 years and have compiled files of thousands of my photographs to use as LEGAL references for my work. Many years ago (before the internet) I took numerous photos of a bear & her cubs. A wildlife artist saw them, and wanted to purchase the photos as resources for her work. She was the individual who explained to me about COPYRIGHT laws and photographs at that time. She told me the story of her friend, who was taken to court because a photographer or publisher of a (calendar? or something) claimed her friend's painting of a deer was a direct copy of a photograph of a deer that they had published.
    4) Publishing has changed drastically in the last 20 years. I am in the process of submitting several of my (COPYRIGHTED) photographs, that were NOT published publicly by me, for publication. If I were fortunate enough to be considered for acceptance/publication, and someone had stolen my images, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be going after them through the courts.
    5) Many folks on this forum have appreciated the photos I've posted, so I hate to say it, but I will refrain from posting my COPYRIGHTED images here until further notice. I was thinking that perhaps I could figure something out that would enable people to enjoy them, without using them for other purposes. I'll let you know if I find a resolution to the quandry. I have seen some people complain about other photographers placing huge watermarks across their images-now folks will hopefully understand why. There are also protections that you can imbed in a photograph to prevent downloading-and conversely, software that overrides those protections. People can crop smaller copyrights out, or otherwise use editing tools to cover watermarks. I enjoyed sharing images with people who appreciate them. But will not if I am undermined by those who feel they have "rights" above mine.


    VA in CA said
    Sharing a link to a forum or your facebook page isn't harming the photographer and is actually providing exposure to others who wouldn't otherwise know of that photographer. I think no one can see the content on a facebook page that is not posted for the public unless they have been friended by the page owner.


    I respectfully disagree, VA in CA. Some artists may feel that way, and If they wanted to share THEIR OWN work publicly they may certainly choose to post it publicly. If they do not choose to do that, no one should take it upon themselves to make that decision for the artist. That's why asking permission is a simple means to address the issue if there are any questions of ownership. Although I do not have direct experience with "friending", I am under the impression that it does not indicate in any way that the "friend" is even a known entity.

    Lastly, I have tried to err on the side of caution. I have learned a lot through this process, and discussion, but I still have plenty more to learn. I have made some mistakes. I've been using a computer and the internet for 20 years. When I finally decided in August of 2014 to share images, I did it in the most conservative manner that I could determine. I only posted photos from a private (locked) instagram folder. It recalled for me a conversation that I had with an extremely talented high school student doing an "independent study" with me back in the mid 1990's. We (a charter group of artist-mentors, art teachers and the state) had created a mentoring website where students could post & receive constructive feedback on their works in progress. (it was quite revolutionary at the time-LOL) "Tim" refused to post images on this secure, password protected site, because he was concerned someone might steal his work. (He is now an engineer).
  • Sally, thanks for your response to my post. I see your point and will do my best to respect your wishes. As far as I can remember, I don't think I have ever posted any of your photos and I won't in the future either. The same goes for Casey's photos. I don't remember if I might have shared a couple in a private e-mail to friends or family. I will avoid doing that in the future as well. There are plenty of other pictures of Coz I can use to show his growth, size, beauty, etc. I hadn't thought that friends could repost pictures onto public sites, so I'm glad you explained that. Thanks for clarifying the issue.
  • More important to me is that we use common courtesy and ask permission before we share photos. If someone asks us to ask them first, especially someone who is a fellow member of a forum, it doesn't hurt to take a moment to ask first. I don't care whether legally you don't HAVE to ask, it just seems the right thing to do. It's a kindness and respect that is important in my humble opinion.
  • SallyTSallyT Member
    edited January 2015
    Thanks for your understanding and support VA _in_CA and louisecostello. I'm no expert on any of this, especially the Facebook end, as I don't use it myself at this time for any posting, friending etc. I just recently opened an account which I will only be using in order to view other peoples images that I am alerted to. One time in recent months someone posted a link to photos of Coz on someone else's Facebook page, that I couldn't view without signing up. Other people have sent me links as well. If you're not a member of Facebook, you can only view parts of peoples pages, so I finally caved and set up an empty account a couple of weeks ago.
    You have always been kind, appreciative and respectful of the photos that I and others have posted here. It's for people like you that I would like to figure out a "safe" way to continue to share my images, if it exists.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    @SallyT- thank you for so ELOQUENTLY stating what I've been trying to impress upon several forum members about using photos from other websites. Even Barbara Livingston has had photos "stolen" from her, her copyright cropped out and then posted as their own.

    The fact is, my photos are my photos, they are copyrighted by me. If I choose to post them somewhere on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, what have you, that doesn't give anyone the right to share them. Even on Facebook, if I see a photo I like, I ask the person if I can share it, (Usually, Barbara Livingston's work), and 99% of the time, permission is granted. I look at it as common courtesy. After receiving permission, I not only post credit to the photographer, but add in "used with permission". That way, no one can hint that it's a copyright infringement, the photographer is getting full credit, and they know I am sharing it with other fans.

    I think when you ask, if you plan to put it on more than one site, you should stress that as well. YOU may not edit out a copyright, but that doesn't mean someone you don't know, won't. For example, if I ask Barbara if I can share her photo on Facebook, and she says yes, that doesn't mean I can share it on Twitter, or Instagram or Pinterest.

    Be courteous, ask permission, and then post the photos with credit and that tag line of Used with permission.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    More important to me is that we use common courtesy and ask permission before we share photos. If someone asks us to ask them first, especially someone who is a fellow member of a forum, it doesn't hurt to take a moment to ask first. I don't care whether legally you don't HAVE to ask, it just seems the right thing to do. It's a kindness and respect that is important in my humble opinion.
    Thanks, Louise, respect, courtesy and kindness is all any of us can ask for.
  • SallyTSallyT Member
    edited January 2015
    casey">@SallyT- thank you for so ELOQUENTLY stating what I've been trying to impress upon several forum members about using photos from other websites. Even Barbara Livingston has had photos "stolen" from her, her copyright cropped out and then posted as their own.

    Thanks Casey, I was hoping you would approve of my explanation. In our world of constant use of social media, people don't always understand the implications of what has become an all too common practice. I knew my post would be long, with examples needed to (hopefully effectively) explain the "whys" of the issue.
    That's one of the reasons I wanted to get this topic off of Coz's thread. People would see all the new posts and go there to read, thinking he was racing (!) and instead find this discussion interspersed in bits and pieces.

  • Whew! Thanks for starting this thread and giving us so much information regarding this subject, which is a very complicated matter especially with the increased use of all the social media. I love to take pictures, but I am a horrible photographer - chopped off heads and legs or otherwise ridiculous images from back in the day when we had to wait for film to be developed, so I very much appreciate the skills and talents of those who can take beautiful shots and share them generously on this wonderful web so we can see them. Since I finally got a smart phone a few years ago I am even crazier with taking pictures - yeah, there are lots of shots of my horse's nose when he wanted to move in closer to the phone, but I still would not want someone to take them from my instagram or Facebook page.

    However, this discussion topic does make me think of another question for the professionals on here. Our OTTB was not a talented race horse, but we did find one of his Win photos on the web so of course, we wanted a copy. It was clearly marked so we contacted the photographer and purchased a nice photo from them which I am thrilled to have. If I wanted to share it to my Facebook page, and I took a picture of a portion of that photo with my phone camera and shared the image that I just took, wouldn't that be copyright infringement also or something else because I'm sharing the image that I took?
  • SallyTSallyT Member
    edited January 2015
    That is very cool Celeste_in_TX!!

    I think the safest thing to do is contact the photographer you bought the photograph from, and ask for permission to use it on Facebook. A couple of years ago I bought a beautiful copyrighted photograph of Ebblouissante. The copyright explanation from that purchase was very explicit that it could not be used for any purpose (other than simply enjoying it) without permission. I had purchased a photographic print, not the rights to it. I haven't shared it on this forum (or anywhere else) because It's not mine to share, nor have I asked permission to. It's a beautiful black and white head shot of her exercising by Moran Photography.

    I enjoy photographing my nephew's hockey games whenever I can. A few years ago I saw a great photo of him in both a printed newspaper, (as well as the online edition) with the photographers name in the credit. I Googled the photographer, and sure enough, he had a website! (Frank Wojciechowski) I contacted him, and not only was I able to purchase that specific photo, but he sent me the whole series of the photo sequence on CD, (for no additional charge) along with a couple of others he had taken that day! You never know until you ask! (I framed three photos from the sequence in a triple matted frame & gave it to my nephew for Christmas that year.)
  • This thread continues to be very interesting. Sally, you asked how you could share photos with certain people. You can do it by Private Message on this site. I've posted pictures to particular people not because of copyright issues but because they would bore others and were not of horses--just personal pics. So I know that it can be done.
  • Thanks VA_in_CA, I was wondering about possibilities along those lines.
  • Going along with this discussion, I read an article in The Horse Collaborative this morning that linked to this blog post by an equine photographer with a detailed description of the situation.
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-show-photographers-are-facing-crisis
    As more people find their way to the internet with all the photos in abundance, it certainly is a risk for someone to enter the field of equine photography. I find it all rather sad. @ SallyT, I think your suggestion of contacting the photographer again is what would work best, at least for my conscience, if I do decide I must post that photo of his win. I certainly already flood my Facebook and Instagram with my choppy pics I take of him with the phone camera - lol!
  • I'm looking for pictures of Rachel Alexandra....one of her running and one of a more conformation. There was one I saw a while back by Barbara Livingston of Rach sort of rearing up a bit but can't find it now. I'm willing to pay for photo copies of course, but can't seem to locate a good website for BL showing her work with a search . Anybody know where I should look?
  • Barbara usually responds on twitter to questions. If you're on twitter, of course, you could tweet to her.
  • Going along with this discussion, I read an article in The Horse Collaborative this morning that linked to this blog post by an equine photographer with a detailed description of the situation.
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-show-photographers-are-facing-crisis
    As more people find their way to the internet with all the photos in abundance, it certainly is a risk for someone to enter the field of equine photography. I find it all rather sad. @ SallyT, I think your suggestion of contacting the photographer again is what would work best, at least for my conscience, if I do decide I must post that photo of his win. I certainly already flood my Facebook and Instagram with my choppy pics I take of him with the phone camera - lol!
    Really interesting article-Thanks Celeste_in_TX thanks for posting it!
  • I'm looking for pictures of Rachel Alexandra....one of her running and one of a more conformation. There was one I saw a while back by Barbara Livingston of Rach sort of rearing up a bit but can't find it now. I'm willing to pay for photo copies of course, but can't seem to locate a good website for BL showing her work with a search . Anybody know where I should look?
    Try the Daily Racing Form. She does a lot of work for them.
  • Bloodhorse also sells photos. I bet they have plenty of Rachel.
  • SallyTSallyT Member
    edited January 2015
    Another interesting article
    http://cameras.reviewed.com/features/stop-giving-away-your-photos?utm_source=spikes&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=collab

    I read many image hosting website policies, before selecting
    Image Shack, as I had been forewarned about some of them. I stayed away from many sites because they essentially could do anything they wanted with "your" photos. The instagram quote is revealing. (I don't Instagram or Facebook, so have never selected the options pointed out.)
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    edited January 2015
    Whew! Thanks for starting this thread and giving us so much information regarding this subject, which is a very complicated matter especially with the increased use of all the social media. I love to take pictures, but I am a horrible photographer - chopped off heads and legs or otherwise ridiculous images from back in the day when we had to wait for film to be developed, so I very much appreciate the skills and talents of those who can take beautiful shots and share them generously on this wonderful web so we can see them. Since I finally got a smart phone a few years ago I am even crazier with taking pictures - yeah, there are lots of shots of my horse's nose when he wanted to move in closer to the phone, but I still would not want someone to take them from my instagram or Facebook page.

    However, this discussion topic does make me think of another question for the professionals on here. Our OTTB was not a talented race horse, but we did find one of his Win photos on the web so of course, we wanted a copy. It was clearly marked so we contacted the photographer and purchased a nice photo from them which I am thrilled to have. If I wanted to share it to my Facebook page, and I took a picture of a portion of that photo with my phone camera and shared the image that I just took, wouldn't that be copyright infringement also or something else because I'm sharing the image that I took?
    Celeste_in_TX- I had a similar situation and have asked the local franchisee (Benoit photo) that exact question- They had taken a shot of Paynter in a race at Del Mar that I loved. I purchased it, and asked them if it would be okay if I posted it with credit given. They said yes as long as I kept their watermark on it, same with posting any winners circle photos that we were in. So, I have always credited photographers. I actually placed a watermark of their name on it.
  • That's interesting, Casey. The photo that I purchased of Sugarfoot's Keeneland win doesn't have a watermark on it, other than the rain drops on that wet, muddy day. It is a wonderful composite that shows the winner's circle shot, three small shots during the race and being led into the winner's circle. Of course, since it is a composite photo like that, it does have the photographer's logo on it, but it isn't across any of the images like I think of a watermark. To me it is a treasure, but if I want to post it on Facebook or elsewhere I will contact them again - they were very nice to deal with. Thank you for sharing not only the photos you've shared but also your valuable knowledge!
Sign In or Register to comment.