American Pharoah

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Comments

  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    For those who haven't ever been around horses, their natural tendency is to move away from pressure. With horse for keurings, they trot a triangle, and have to circle away to the right (handler is on the left) The handler can't cross over in front of them, so they have to be taught to move to the right. One of the ways to train them is to hold the hand up to the left eye. The horse begins to pull away- the handler follows the horse. Using the hand encourages the horse to go the direction away from it. Same principle applies to use of whip. If you saw Firing Line's front on shot, you saw Gary have his head angled toward Pharoah. Had Firing Line followed his head, he would have drifted and impeded Pharoah. Because it was just Gary doing race riding, it wasn't an issue- but, had FL moved, Gary could have brought the whip up towards the head (not touching FL's head), and it would have corrected him to keep straight. Whips are TOOLS. When a horse is going 40mph, you have to have a way to correct them quickly and effectively and safely. So, I'm with Delamont, no ban on the whip.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    NY does have a whip rule, pretty similar to CA's I think
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    Whips are TOOLS. When a horse is going 40mph, you have to have a way to correct them quickly and effectively and safely. So, I'm with Delamont, no ban on the whip.
    Just adding my agreement here with what Casey has explained.

    Jockey's are quite literally perched atop the horse. They don't have the same use of leg/seat aids that riders of jumpers, dressage, western, etc have. The whip is used to supplement the loss of that aid, again just like Casey explained.

    Of course it can be abused but I agree with Casey and Delamont, regulate the use of the whip but don't ban it.
  • Welp, looks like Victor is going to get fined anyway for Stellar Wind:

    Espinoza Fined for Whip Use on Stellar Wind
    http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91876/espinoza-fined-for-whip-use-on-stellar-wind
  • I don't think whips should be banned either, but I have no problem with regulations for whip usage. Victor needs to cool his jets, IMO. Breaking the skin tells me there is some pain.
  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    Huh. Odd that no one besides the state vet knew anything about it. I don't think John Sadler is the kind of trainer who wouldn't notice an injury on such a top caliber horse.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    yeah, isn't that amazing EliRose???? I know John, and he's a hands on trainer. Can't believe he didn't see something, or that the groom didn't see anything or that the RECEIVING BARN didn't see anything after she went back there to pee.....
  • So, are we thinking it's a conspiracy or something? With all the real stuff going on, they're making up stuff during the Triple Crown races to make more bad publicity? So weird.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Do not think so. Think may be reaction to publicity. Don'_t know. The racing stewards judged it was inappropriate. Expect jockey to appeal. Black mark on his resume.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    the stewards said it was inappropriate FIVE WEEKS after the race. They couldn't have figured it out SOONER???? That's why CA racing has issues with the stewards. It sounds politically motivated
  • KMMKMM Member
    Why would it be politically motivated? Race is in Kentucky. Think it is about appearance and publicity. Jockey is smart enough to clear his name.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Ok... this is bugging...Victor is one the best hand rides in the biz. Sometimes to the detriment of the race or horse. To hear anyone call him out for whip use is outrageous or contemplated agenda.
  • It does seem rather coincidental that Stellar Wind's "whip mark" would be brought forth right at the time when Espinoza is getting heat about overuse of the whip on Pharaoh: why wasn't this brought up sooner?
  • And 'regulations' are likely to be proposed and passed by people who haven't been any closer to a horse than watching one on TV.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    Huh. Odd that no one besides the state vet knew anything about it. I don't think John Sadler is the kind of trainer who wouldn't notice an injury on such a top caliber horse.
    This was my thought when I read that. Sadler isn't such a big operation that he doesn't know what's going on with his horses. Even if he'd discovered a cut and dismissed it as bumping in the race, I wouldn't think he'd say what he did in that interview.

    I agree, this sounds like politics in motion.

    Personally, totally speculation but I think the California stewards are still wearing a black eye (maybe behind closed doors) from letting Bayren's lugging in go without remark in the BCC. Wonder if powerful voices have been making off hand comments about moving the Breeders Cup in 2016...
  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    Do not think so. Think may be reaction to publicity. Don'_t know. The racing stewards judged it was inappropriate. Expect jockey to appeal. Black mark on his resume.
    I'm not Victor's biggest fan, but with three KY Derbies under his belt, "excessive whip use" long after to the fact is really not going to hurt him.

    Besides that - Stellar Wind ran in the KY Oaks AFTER the Santa Anita Oaks, which Victor is being fined for. Come on now.
  • This really feels like the racing industry is trying to save face. "Oh snap! Everyone's saying that we're letting jockeys be mean to horses! Quick! Slap a 300$ fine on this guy! But wait, we already said we thought nothing was wrong with American Pharaoh's Kentucky Derby win... Hmm... I know! Let's bring up a case over a month old! There! We'll fine him for that so the media thinks we're a true friend of the horse!".
  • edit
  • KMMKMM Member
    Thank you LC. Widens the discussion.
  • shirleeshirlee Member
    Sorry guys but I am not a Victor fan. There is a video posted over on the blog by Chris McCarran about the proper use of the crop and how he teaches it at his riding school. Very informative.
    I felt that Victor hit Coz too much in his race especially after it was clear he wasn't going to win or even finish in the money. Gary Stevens and Mike Smith are master riders and use care in the use of the whip.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Did not realize skin was broken LC. Just read.
  • Sorry guys but I am not a Victor fan. There is a video posted over on the blog by Chris McCarran about the proper use of the crop and how he teaches it at his riding school. Very informative.
    I felt that Victor hit Coz too much in his race especially after it was clear he wasn't going to win or even finish in the money. Gary Stevens and Mike Smith are master riders and use care in the use of the whip.
    Shirlee, Can you tell us where on the blog side the video is located? I can't seem to find it. Thanks

  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    Sorry guys but I am not a Victor fan. There is a video posted over on the blog by Chris McCarran about the proper use of the crop and how he teaches it at his riding school. Very informative.
    I felt that Victor hit Coz too much in his race especially after it was clear he wasn't going to win or even finish in the money. Gary Stevens and Mike Smith are master riders and use care in the use of the whip.
    Gary Stevens with his buzzer is a BAD example.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    I'm not the biggest fan of Victor either but I don't like seeing anybody the subject of a social media witch hunt.

    Too often people are being tried and judged on social media and then there seems to be an expectation of punishment, ignoring the facts and input from the individuals who are trained and experienced in these matters.

    @louisecastello here is the video Shirlee is referring too.

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