American Pharoah

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Comments

  • Thank you, Zenyen!
  • shirleeshirlee Member
    Thanks for posting the video.

    Gary and the buzzer was many years ago and he has learned a lot since then.

    I too wonder at the delay in California and would not want to see any rider unjustly punished.

  • shirleeshirlee Member
    On to the Preakness. Think AF can do it and hope all come home safely. Divining Rod has a chance to be in the money.
  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    edited May 2015
    Thanks for posting the video.

    Gary and the buzzer was many years ago and he has learned a lot since then.

    I too wonder at the delay in California and would not want to see any rider unjustly punished.

    Sorry to mention it again, but saying "it was a long time ago" just doesn't cut it. That PETA video was taken just over a year ago and he, Scott Blasi, and Lukas were super unapologetic in it. I highly doubt Gary has used one in a LONG time, but that video was very disturbing.

    On another note, I'm pretty confident in AP in the Preakness. If Dortmund and Divining Rod are up to speed they should be huge threats.
  • Steve Haskin wrote a compelling article regarding the recent backlash on Victor Espinoza, and whipping in general.

    http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2015/05/10/whip-abuse-i-wish-i-had-the-answers.aspx

    Thoughts?
  • KMMKMM Member
    Going to think alot about line up, jockeys, and post positions. Maybe a truer race. Shorter race to AP'_'s advantage, how many speed horses in field, front runner may take it gate to wire. Do not think it is done deal. This race maybe close to record if track is fast and not wet.
  • edited May 2015
    Steve Haskin wrote a compelling article regarding the recent backlash on Victor Espinoza, and whipping in general.

    http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2015/05/10/whip-abuse-i-wish-i-had-the-answers.aspx

    Thoughts?
    I love it, just like most everything Mr. Haskin writes. I will say, like some others, that I do not think Victor meant to abuse any of the horses he has whipped a lot. And remember, he whipped on California Chrome a lot as well. I don't think he is a cruel, abusive, and uncaring jockey at all. I think he gets in panic mode and whips too much without thinking. He's certainly had a lot of pressure on him and eyes on him for the past two years which is probably not helping.

    And I definitely think there should be rules.



  • KMMKMM Member
    Question is if the whipplng is severe. I use my crop/ whip while riding mymare mare. It is a tool and I use light taps. It is an aid in addition to leg for signal next expectation. Hard to judge the impetus jockeys are using in races.
  • Question is if the whipplng is severe. I use my crop/ whip while riding mymare mare. It is a tool and I use light taps. It is an aid in addition to leg for signal next expectation. Hard to judge the impetus jockeys are using in races.
    It is hard to judge and I don't think the whip should be banned at all. I just think we need to have some rules and I think jockeys should have some input along with other officials when coming up with rules.

  • KMMKMM Member
    You are right on LC. You said it better than I did.
  • edit
  • shirleeshirlee Member
    We have to remember also that the jockey works for the trainer and the owner and his pay is based or race results. If the owners and trainers brief him on the use of the whip and he goes against orders that is another story. I think sometimes when a horse loses or finishes out of the money the owners and trainers blame the jock and say he/she did not do enough.
  • I watch NYRA’s Trips and Traps with Richard Migliore and Andy Serling. Just today, I saw at least one incident where the stick saved both horse and rider. You do not want 'oversight committees' making these rules and staring over the jockey's shoulder.
  • That's why I said jockeys should be involved in deciding rules and the whip shouldn't be banned.
  • You know what I'm really enjoying about this? The fact that we're all divulging and discussing this controversial topic like the adults I know we all are. Earlier this year we would have all been cranky and snapping at each other for so much as breathing the perceived wrong way. It's a very positive change that I am very happy about, we were all under a lot of stress from building tension: but the forum seems to be more relaxed now. I'm so proud of us! As for what to do about whipping: I do not think the jockeys intentionally whip the horse to abuse it, but they need to practice restraint. Rules and regulations should be put in place, but do research beforehand.
  • You know what I'm really enjoying about this? The fact that we're all divulging and discussing this controversial topic like the adults I know we all are. Earlier this year we would have all been cranky and snapping at each other for so much as breathing the perceived wrong way. It's a very positive change that I am very happy about, we were all under a lot of stress from building tension: but the forum seems to be more relaxed now. I'm so proud of us! As for what to do about whipping: I do not think the jockeys intentionally whip the horse to abuse it, but they need to practice restraint. Rules and regulations should be put in place, but do research beforehand.
    Well said, RR12! I agree about research before rules and about the present state of the forum. It feels much better right now.

  • I wonder if maybe instead of, or more likely in addition to, regulating the use of the whip, they should be looking at modifying the equipment. I know they've padded the ends, but maybe something could be done to the shaft, perhaps to direct the force of the strike over a broader area? One wants to preserve the noise it makes, and one wants the horse to feel pressure, but not pain. Or maybe a light pad could be placed under the saddle towel to absorb some of the impact, so that the horse can feel the stick but not be hurt by it. Thoughts?
  • I wonder if maybe instead of, or more likely in addition to, regulating the use of the whip, they should be looking at modifying the equipment. I know they've padded the ends, but maybe something could be done to the shaft, perhaps to direct the force of the strike over a broader area? One wants to preserve the noise it makes, and one wants the horse to feel pressure, but not pain. Or maybe a light pad could be placed under the saddle towel to absorb some of the impact, so that the horse can feel the stick but not be hurt by it. Thoughts?
    Sounds like a good idea.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Most of horse racing problems are self inflicted. When a problem occurs the industry reacts belatedly to loudest cry. Instead of being out front it's always reactionary. Like the question of whip use, why wasn't an investigation under way concerning stellar wind? If there had been maybe the pharo thing doesn't even come up because Victor would be on notice and clear rules would already be in place.
  • caseycasey any racetrack with camera in handMember
    We have to remember also that the jockey works for the trainer and the owner and his pay is based or race results. If the owners and trainers brief him on the use of the whip and he goes against orders that is another story. I think sometimes when a horse loses or finishes out of the money the owners and trainers blame the jock and say he/she did not do enough.
    CA and NY do have whip rules, but KY's are much more vague and apparently lenient. CA has pretty straightforward rules- the horse has to be shown the whip first, no more than 3 smacks then the horse has to be allowed to respond. That being said, I watched the race after looking at the rules and Victor did smack Pharoah 3 times, waited then did it again. Now, there wasn't much time for "waiting", but that isn't specified.

    I mentioned on a forum on Facebook (and got yelled at) that because VIctor rides mostly in CA, it follows (at least in my brain) that when the adrenaline is coursing through your body, your muscle memory takes over, and because he's adapted to the CA rules, he's going to be using those rules when he rides elsewhere (again, muscle memory taking over during an adrenaline rush). I dunno.

    I do find it very ironic that AFTER the Derby, CA fines Victor for the SA Oaks when Stellar Wind had "broken skin". Nothing mentioned before that, and even her trainer and groom didn't notice broken skin, nor was it noted in the receiving barn after the race.....
  • I think that's a good point, @Casey, about Victor. And I never thought Victor is a "bad" person, I think panic could be involved too as well as adrenaline and what you said about muscle memory.

    I'm sure there are some politics involved in the SA Oaks thing coming out now. I hope they have photos to back themselves up if it's true, even if the public doesn't see them. On the Chris McCarran video on the previous page, he said when he got violations for whip use, they showed him photos which devastated him because he didn't realize what he had done "in the moment." It's a good video, by the way.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Will check video out, thanks LC
  • American Pharoah Confidential: 5/10/15:
  • I forgot to say, @lauraj, I think your idea about modifying the whip sounds like a great thing to pursue.
  • It just occurred to me: why must others post on the internet in place of horses? Why not let the horses post on their Facebooks and Twitter accounts??? We should invent a keyboard for horses! Like: line a bunch of pressure pads up that represent numbers, letters, and symbols.... Then allow the horse to type with its' hoof! Then we'll REALLY know what they think!
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