Faversham (Lucky Pulpit x Love the Chase) Full Brother to California Chrome

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Comments

  • sarinnesarinne Member
    Rachel said:

    LOL!

    I didnt mean my commenting in a negative way. Horses like AP Indy have proven time and again that it doesnt hinder them. Was just going to be an interesting bit of info on him.

    sarinne said:

    Blast them to hell for ever using ridglings like AP Indy!

    Rachel, you are fine! :wink: I was being sarcastic. We just have one very opinionated and uneducated poster who keeps coming up with preposterous posts. Close your eyes and pick a thread.... :grimace:
  • edited April 7
    I guess I am one who feels the Ridgelings used at stud will only help increase the numbers of ridgelings AND it is proven that a retained testicle has a much higher chance at gaining Cancer. Why breed to Faversham who you know is born with and issue when you have California Chrome who is not with the issue. Has California Chrome produced any Ridgelings ?

    We all see it said we want to improve the breed so how is using a Horse with a genetic problem improving the breed when you have a full brother who doesn't have that genetic problem?
  • KMMKMM Member
    Faversham is a cheaper substitute. It is all basic economics.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member

    I guess I am one who feels the Ridgelings used at stud will only help increase the numbers of ridgelings AND it is proven that a retained testicle has a much higher chance at gaining Cancer. Why breed to Faversham who you know is born with and issue when you have California Chrome who is not with the issue. Has California Chrome produced any Ridgelings ?

    We all see it said we want to improve the breed so how is using a Horse with a genetic problem improving the breed when you have a full brother who doesn't have that genetic problem?

    Just because an animal does not express a genetic issue doesn't mean the animal is free of the genetics of that issue.

    California Chrome is just as likely to pass Ridgling on to his get as Faversham.

    By your own argument you are saying that Zenyatta should never have been bred because she had a club foot. A club foot is on par with ridgling; if it expresses itself you manage the situation as needed and see if the individual proves themself in their career.

    If I was breeding and concerned about what got passed on, my greater concern would be the fact that Faversham is a head case like his dam, as opposed to California Chrome who appears to be the only full sibling out of that mare who benefited from NOT having her direct influence when he was a baby.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Ooohhhh...how interesting...
    Dang Gina
  • KMMKMM Member
    Very observant on your part Zenyen. You must know people...
  • edited April 8
    So Zenyen, you are saying that you focus on leveled headed racing horses so you are looking for that level headed trait that passes on to the foal as well. And to use your own example Zenyatta has the gene for club foot which anyone knows is not desired in a race horse and especially on a fore hoof , and well what do we have with her only living filly? Now for me I would have looked for a Stallion who had no record of producing a club hoof(though it still could be lurking unseen do to selecting mares without that problem).

    Now that you see it in Zellda you now have useful information. Not on Zenyatta, But on Medaglia d'Oro. The big task would be to find which line behind Zenny passed on that gene and locate a stallion that didn't have that gene carried. Just as you would use Chrome for his beautiful temperament and level head over Faversham to hope for a level headed foal.

    Back to Faversham here for a moment:
    Why would you want to not breed a great mare to a normal Stallion and not one who you know has a genetic fault which WILL pass on to all his foals? If you reread what I posted I even asked if California Chrome had produced any Ridgelings as of record. Also Mares have to carry the gene to produce a colt who is a Ridgeling. ALL Faversham's foals WILL get one gene for Ridgeling and IF the Dam of his foal carries the gene than 50% of the time that foal WILL be a Ridgeling, and 50% WILL carry the gene. Now say California Chrome does produce a Ridgeling. That means he Carries the gene so if bred to a Mare who carries the gene then he WILL produce a Ridgeling Colt 25% of the time, A Carrier of it 50% of the time, and a Normal Colt 25% of the time. IF he does produce a Ridgeling Colt then you would have to breed him a lot more selectively to not pass on the unwanted genetic defect. BUT he would be able to produce Colts without the defect. Faversham on the other hand can NEVER produce a unaffected Colt as either they will be a Ridgeling or will carry for the gene.

    Back to Zenny and her Club Foot:
    We now know by Zellda that her sire carries the gene for club hoof. Does that mean geld or spay all his foals? No! of course not, it simply means that you don't breed a mare who HAS a club foot to him and you don't breed his offspring with it ONCE that defective filly has produced foals (in Zellda's case) which do not have any club hoof(Foals simply because in the world of racing we never stop at one foal). Or a full blood sibling colt is born without the defect(as in California Chrome with Faversham) This of course doesn't guarantee that proper hooved foal will not carry the gene for Club Foot, but it is a good start to eliminating that Club Foot gene as the generations go on.

    So again using Zenny for and example(hypothetically speaking since I doubt they will breed back to MdO), Say Zenny is bred back and she has another Filly who does NOT have any Club Foot.
    Which would you want to use to produce the next generation from Zenyatta? Zellda with a Club Front foot or Z Baby who has correct hooves?

    The problem is in the racing world everyone wants to produce that racing winner and they will overlook defects IF they believe that overlooking will not cause their belief to not happen. Thus every year we have hundreds of foals born to the big name stallions who have a known defect and we sell those foals for big money and we race them and some win and some die, and some just run and never win. The ones that win big are then used to many mares every year and even if a defect is found we just go right on breeding that defect as we may get that mini me of the big winner. However we also get many carriers of that defect which down the road will come bite us right in the fanny. I just pray that defect that comes to bite us doesn't cause the death of horse racing.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    As usual the point has gone right over your head and as such I’m not wasting my time trying address any of this drivel.
  • Why that just show me you are like all the ones who will breed a defect JUST to get a winner But I will agree to disagree and is why I am not breeding Race horses but did breed show dogs which the whole breed was found to have a life threatening defect which my lines did not and are now used in the breed to help breed out tat defect for good. The who cares way of some is sad.
  • Although a tad wary of adding fuel to the flames here cryptorchidsm in horses has yet to be proven to be hereditary although there is support for that it maybe more expressed in some families. No gene mapping studies have yet managed to identify the specific mutation. As for club feet this can also arise from multiple causes during gestation. I certainly would not be hanging out a specific stallion as the cause without being in possesion of a full genetic profile for both sire and dam.

    Perhaps gene mapping/typing be carried out in the future on thoroughbreds to identify faulty genes as exemplified by the recent work on warmblood fragile foal syndrome but as yet there is little incentive since neither of the above conditions is classified as lethal mutations.

    No one deliberatly breeds for unsoundness as that is by its very nature is counterproductive and to suggest otherwise is unfair
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    edited April 8

    Why that just show me you are like all the ones who will breed a defect JUST to get a winner But I will agree to disagree and is why I am not breeding Race horses but did breed show dogs which the whole breed was found to have a life threatening defect which my lines did not and are now used in the breed to help breed out tat defect for good. The who cares way of some is sad.

    Well if you bred show dogs that puts you one up on me for breeding. I've never bred an animal in my life.

    I almost did. I have a GSD with excellent hip and elbow scores, full calm grip, beautiful obedience to his handler but unflinching fight against the helper, no history of bloat, clear of DM. I have him titled, I have him rated, spent over 4 years working with him from a puppy. He's clear headed, loves children, doesn't chase his housemates, completely dog neutral.

    All the traits you want in a GSD. Except one. He was fretful under gunfire. Had to really work on him to get him to stay down with me out of sight during gunfire.

    For me, even though I had a waiting list of bitch owners who wanted to breed to him, I decided I wouldn't breed. Because that one concern spoke to a shakiness of nerves and I was not going to breed that trait on because downstream that is how you end up with fear biters. Even though the GSD breed needs structurally sound hips and elbows, as well as DM clear individuals, all of which he would have brought to the table. But I wasn't going to risk a nervy dog from him 2 or 3 generations down the line.

    As Racingfan has just nicely pointed out, there are levels of breed imperfections that you make the choice to balance out, because no animal is perfection. I have worked with club footed horses and I have worked with Ridglings and in all instances, due to proper management, these horses were top flight in their careers. Racing and show jumping respectively.

    So take your uninformed, sanctimonious judgements and insert them where there is a regrettable lack of sunlight.
  • KMMKMM Member
    B)
  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    Calling it a “club foot gene” just perfectly illustrates your lack of knowledge.
  • sarinnesarinne Member
    EliRose said:

    Calling it a “club foot gene” just perfectly illustrates your lack of knowledge.

    And as a dog breeder, I'd expect you to realize (if not know) that the exposure or experiences of the dam of certain things during certain times of gestation (as racingfan mentioned) contributes to a lot of congenital defects.
  • racingfan said:

    Although a tad wary of adding fuel to the flames here cryptorchidism in horses has yet to be proven to be hereditary although there is support for that it maybe more expressed in some families. No gene mapping studies have yet managed to identify the specific mutation. As for club feet this can also arise from multiple causes during gestation. I certainly would not be hanging out a specific stallion as the cause without being in possession of a full genetic profile for both sire and dam.

    Perhaps gene mapping/typing be carried out in the future on thoroughbreds to identify faulty genes as exemplified by the recent work on warmblood fragile foal syndrome but as yet there is little incentive since neither of the above conditions is classified as lethal mutations.

    No one deliberately breeds for unsoundness as that is by its very nature is counterproductive and to suggest otherwise is unfair

    Fuel is not needed and I was called many things in the quest to breed out the unproven at that time genetic defect, and I commend you Zenyen for not breeding your GSD as that can be inherited and is NOT a quality as you said for a correct and proper GSD (I bred GSD before Cardigan Welsh Corgis) I stopped Breeding GSD because of the huge amount of dysplastic GSD and also the increase in shy and really unwilling to train dogs. Showing became more important than Quality in the GSD world.

    I do wonder why there is not more testing in Horses in general. With all these very loud marked Foals coming in the world will the Lethal White gene come in the TB world? I remember when breeders and trainers got very upset if a prospective hope foal was born with white legs. It was said white hooves are softer and tend to have weak walls and often throw shoes. Obviously California Chrome and many high white leg TB have better and stronger Hooves now then back in the 80's. I can't say they were wrong as my Palomino show mare had 4 white legs and if not for the TB trainer at the barn I would have never learned that Selenium would help build a better hoof and once she was on that her hooves never tossed a shoe again, and she didn't get hoof cracks either (before that she got quarter cracks monthly and was laid up and could not be ridden until she healed).

    I do think it would benefit the TB breeders to start looking to genetic markers as it will help improve the breed in the end. It is costly at first but as more and more TB are tested for that particular the cost go down as two tested clear of and issue can only produce clear so the foals would not need testing at all. It is worth the expense in my honest opinion. And yes outside situations can and do effect fetuses in the womb. My Last female was bred to the same dog and was kept on the same food and at the same location and had a wonderful and very healthy litter and the following year I bred her back to the same male, as the pups were very nice and 80% of the litter was clear of the genetic defect call DM. the other 20% were carriers as we didn't have a genetic marker to test for DM at the time of the first litter I offered to pay half for the pup buyers to have their pet pups tested when the marker was found.

    Before the 2nd litter was born they had a marker to test for DM and I had the most horrible whelping possible. The neighbor across the way had used Chem Lawn for the Lawn care and had sprayed the lawn with a lab tested and prove chemical which caused midline issues even in human fetuses which caused one pup to die and swell up to 4 X it's normal birth weight. One pup was born with no stomach skin and the organs were outside the body she was PTS almost immediately, and a 3rd pup had a severe Cleft Palette and could not nurse properly and was also PTS. The remaining 5 pups were lovely and had good bone and proper standards and all but one was OFA tested to be DM Clear. Only one of that Females pups went on to be bred but that one Female pup gave the breed a whole litter of DM clear pups who are now being utilized to stamp out DM in the breed.

    I am so strong on things which I see as undesired and just want the TB future champs and racers to be healthier and not have any genetic defects IF they had a genetic test to know that a mare was clear of cryptorchidism and said mare would have potential to produce an outstanding Foal for Faversham then I would not be so strong voiced about gelding him or not adding him in to the gene pool. He is a beautiful Horse and him and his Brother have and outstanding temperament and a real love of people. Not to for get they both can race well too. THEN Faversham ,and California Chrome could help improve the TBs with their progeny. Without adding yet more ridgelings.

    Zenyen I do apologize for my awful choice of words to you I know you Love the Racing TBs and only gave your opinions and I ask you to forgive me for my rudeness before.

  • KaseyKasey Member
    You have never bred a thing in your life. You have never so much as taken a genetics class. You have no class.
  • EliRoseEliRose Member
    You're grasping at straws.

    The retained testicle is removed the vast majority of the time, as was already explained to you multiple times over. Most male horses in this country end up gelded anyway, so whether or not they had a funky testicle means nothing. It's not a big deal at all.

    LWS does not just show up, it has a very specific and KNOWN cause, that being homozygous frame overo. Frame is extremely rare in TBs and most that have frame carriers are color breeders. The loud foals by popular sires are not frame, they come from splash and sabino. In any case if the foal has LWS it's not going to survive the week and will not be breeding on, and the parents simply cannot be bred to another frame carrier. Frame is totally safe in it's het form.

    White hooves/legs causing issues is an old wives tale.

    The stories about your two litters are sketchy AF. So 20% of the first litter was tested for DM, and yet you STILL repeated the breeding? Talk about cracking a few eggs.

    But you're whining about ridglings, which have great quality of life. Okay.
  • So was your pregnant bitch outside rolling on your neighbor's lawn right after the lawn was sprayed? Or did you have the windows in your house open on a windy day and the fumes from the Chem Lawn came rifting into the house and your dog inhaled them?

    racingfan said:



    Before the 2nd litter was born they had a marker to test for DM and I had the most horrible whelping possible. The neighbor across the way had used Chem Lawn for the Lawn care and had sprayed the lawn with a lab tested and prove chemical which caused midline issues even in human fetuses which caused one pup to die and swell up to 4 X it's normal birth weight. One pup was born with no stomach skin and the organs were outside the body she was PTS almost immediately, and a 3rd pup had a severe Cleft Palette and could not nurse properly and was also PTS.

  • So was your pregnant bitch outside rolling on your neighbor's lawn right after the lawn was sprayed? Or did you have the windows in your house open on a windy day and the fumes from the Chem Lawn came rifting into the house and your dog inhaled them?

    racingfan said:



    Before the 2nd litter was born they had a marker to test for DM and I had the most horrible whelping possible. The neighbor across the way had used Chem Lawn for the Lawn care and had sprayed the lawn with a lab tested and prove chemical which caused midline issues even in human fetuses which caused one pup to die and swell up to 4 X it's normal birth weight. One pup was born with no stomach skin and the organs were outside the body she was PTS almost immediately, and a 3rd pup had a severe Cleft Palette and could not nurse properly and was also PTS.

    Windows open and yes the spray residual was all over my house(especially my TV and end tables) it was awful. The lawn care company was actually sued by 4 people in the township and they lost the cases and paid large sums for the human babies that also were affected it was horrible. The neighbor who had their lawn treated also died of Cancer a year later having no signs of cancer or nothing the year before. USDA has also ban the use of that chemical fertilizer too. Thank God.
  • KMMKMM Member
    Quite an experience. Dead people and sick babies and dogs...
  • edited April 10
    Kasey said:

    You have never bred a thing in your life. You have never so much as taken a genetics class. You have no class.

    Look here for your needed proof of me breeding and you can put in that Dogs name in OFA and you can pull up all the health testing AND the results if you so desire to verify my facts said.
    https://www.wyntrcardigans.com/qt.html
    Once at that site poke on Girls and click on Tiera and you can see the only puppy bred from the horrible birthing litter.
    Click on To the Bridge and then on Blast and you can see the sire of both of my last litters.
    Oh If you click on Litters you can see the one litter that Tiera had who pup Embers is now carrying on the bloodlines for Wyntr using my foundation lines.
  • KaseyKasey Member
    edited April 11

    Kasey said:

    You have never bred a thing in your life. You have never so much as taken a genetics class. You have no class.

    Look here for your needed proof of me breeding and you can put in that Dogs name in OFA and you can pull up all the health testing AND the results if you so desire to verify my facts said.
    https://www.wyntrcardigans.com/qt.html
    Once at that site poke on Girls and click on Tiera and you can see the only puppy bred from the horrible birthing litter.
    Click on To the Bridge and then on Blast and you can see the sire of both of my last litters.
    Oh If you click on Litters you can see the one litter that Tiera had who pup Embers is now carrying on the bloodlines for Wyntr using my foundation lines.
    1. You've shown a complete disrespect to some very knowledgeable folks on this forum.
    2. You definitely enjoy antagonization. It does show in your choice of forum.
    3. I say with all due respect, that you seem to lack a fundamental knowledge of breeding and your head does not appear to be in the right place for this endeavor at this time.
    4. A forum is not at all the right place to prove one's worth among peers of any profession. If you want your colleagues to take you seriously you must address them directly.
    5. No person here can give further guidance to one who who does not wish to listen, or more importantly learn. So hoping, you little hatchling, will have all of the luck as you make your way through the real world.
  • He had a second workout on April 21 and there are only three racing days left at Keeneland (April 25, 26, 27).

    If he doesn't make a start at Keeneland what was the point of shipping him there? Does he go next to Churchill Downs or ???


    Horse Workout Notification
    April 21, 2019

    Faversham (4-Year-Old Ridgling)

    Date: April 21, 2019
    Track: KEENELAND
    Distance: Four Furlongs
    Time: 49:00 Breezing
    Track Condition: Fast
    Surface: Dirt
    Rank: 14/33
  • Faversham (4-Year-Old Ridgling)

    Date: April 28, 2019
    Track: KEENELAND
    Distance: Five Furlongs
    Time: 1.00:60 Breezing
    Track Condition: Fast
    Surface: Dirt
    Rank: 4/15


    image.png 540.1K
  • Faversham (4-Year-Old Ridgling)

    Date: May 6, 2019
    Track: KEENELAND
    Distance: Four Furlongs
    Time: 49:80 Breezing
    Track Condition: Fast
    Surface: Dirt
    Rank: 31/45
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