Welcome Princess 2017

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  • RachelRachel Member
    I'm disappointed in that news about Z17. Didn't work out for Coz, doesn't seem to be working for Zi, and now she's going to him. There's just other trainers out there that can get the job done and not wait months between races. They're race horses, they live to race, unless they don't like it.
  • It's good to read that Ziconic is getting turn-out time, though.
  • Rachel said:

    I'm disappointed in that news about Z17. Didn't work out for Coz, doesn't seem to be working for Zi, and now she's going to him. There's just other trainers out there that can get the job done and not wait months between races. They're race horses, they live to race, unless they don't like it.

    Again, at this point I'm just happy that it's looking like she will have career.
  • zfanzfan CaliforniaMember
    jen_bloom said:

    It's good to read that Ziconic is getting turn-out time, though.

    Yup, that is great news about Ziconic
  • edited June 2018
    Therefore I have to conclude they think the club foot has been/will be corrected enough to make her sound for racing. But the thought of her going to JS does give me cause for pause. I just feel "enough already".



    Confirmed that she is going to be trained by John Shirreffs.

  • I have one different conclusion... her club foot is not corrected and JS is the perfect trainer for her since he won't have her doing anything.
  • That's kinda sad. Glad she is going to try racing ,but sad to see her go the same route as her big brothers. Same thing, different day. ho hum
  • edited June 2018
    LOL. =)

    Makes her first start (2020) just before turning four (2021). At four (2021) no where to be seen until, the summer of Del Mar and then then in April of 2022 we hear through a tweet that she's back at Lanes End and was bred.
    whoodler said:

    I have one different conclusion... her club foot is not corrected and JS is the perfect trainer for her since he won't have her doing anything.

  • Hearty har har. Very funny, you all. Not. :/ Coz and Zi were colts. 17Z is a filly. Zenyatta was a filly. Don't write 17Z off before she even finishes growing up. Cheeeesh.
  • Hun?
  • No one is writing her off for heaven's sake. It was a caricature/joke of the last six years and the recent way we've received breaking news. Good grief.
    VA_in_CA said:

    Hearty har har. Very funny, you all. Not. :/ Coz and Zi were colts. 17Z is a filly. Zenyatta was a filly. Don't write 17Z off before she even finishes growing up. Cheeeesh.

  • bigherbiebigherbie Member
    edited June 2018
    VA_in_CA said:

    Hearty har har. Very funny, you all. Not. :/ Coz and Zi were colts. 17Z is a filly. Zenyatta was a filly. Don't write 17Z off before she even finishes growing up. Cheeeesh.

    VA, I don't believe anyone is writing 17Z off. But, but, but, but we all know the saying "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." If 17Z goes to Mayberry in Florida on her way to JS it's the keep it in the "family" mentality. If they asked my opinion ( :3 ) I would send her to the McKathan Brothers for training in Citra, FL and then onto a good filly trainer (BB would even be in the mix (can't believe I said that). Whatever it takes to get one of Zenyatta's foals across the finish line. Zenyatta will have more foals (hopefully) but will it always be the same??????

    Oh, I can almost guarantee, if 17Z makes it to the races, she will be closer!
  • To be perfectly clear...
    it is not 17Z that is being disparaged.
    It is Shirriffs.
    And it says tons about Zenyatta's intelligence and fortitude and God given ability that she survived his "training."
  • whoodler said:

    To be perfectly clear...
    it is not 17Z that is being disparaged.
    It is Shirriffs.
    And it says tons about Zenyatta's intelligence and fortitude and God given ability that she survived his "training."

    <3
  • bleubettybleubetty Member
    edited June 2018
    @Especially_Horses --- @bigherbie --- @whoodler
    Couldn't have said it better <3 :'(
    Maybe JS will get lucky with Z17 --- if she is her Mama Z made over. I'm not sure that kind of lightning can strike twice<b class="Bold">. Please, at least send her to McKathan Brothers so that she gets a solid foundation before JS attempts to "mold" her into what he thinks she should be, a deep closer??
  • Well, I don't think Shirreffs needs to be so disrespected, nor should he be. It's not up to us who trains 17Z, We have no vote on this one. I don't know why we can't just be fans without having to be critics. It seems merciless to me, in my opinion.
  • edited June 2018
    VA: Well, why not be a bit "disappointed".. This same scenario has been going on since Coz... Nobody is saying anything bad bout Shirreffs, its just that he does the same thing with all his horses, especially Zenyatta's babies. Maybe they do not want to run in a shadow roll, maybe they need to be trained differently than Zenyatta was. Heck, Zenyatta would have probably done exactly what she did in racing with any trainer, Zen was a 'rare" horse and she just wanted to win, no matter what type of race she was in. But, that certainly doesn't mean that EVERY one of her babies be trained the same way.. I think Coz is happier than ever now, but maybe because he did not like the way he was expected to race.Ziconic at least acted like he wanted to race, but when they had him losing to another one of Mosses horse, I think he lost his "want" to be at the front. Will the baby girl be done the same way? Most likely, with the same results. Dog showing for example. When your dog is with a certain handler who you have used forever and is not winning , just kinda picking up a point or to at shows, not liking where he is and who he is with. So, you change handlers and BAM, the dog starts winning and winning , acts happy and LOVES showing. A good owner will see the difference and its because the dog LOVES the handler and how he is being trained and shown. I see the same scenario with baby girl... She will be treated the same as the other horses in John's barn and trained like Zenyatta was trained.. Might have worked great for Zenyatta, but as shown, NOT with Coz or Ziconic. I forsee the same thing with the filly, same stuff, different day.. Very disappointing and not very hopeful for a different outcome...
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited June 2018
    For one thing, Coz and Zi were not top notch racehorses, and the end results may have been the same with any trainer. Be careful about anthropomorphizing horses. They are not people. I am not defending Sherriffs training methods, but he has had success with other horses not just Zen.
  • LionessLioness Member
    edited June 2018
    KMM said:

    For one thing, Coz and Zi were not top notch racehorses, and the end results may have been the same with any trainer. Be careful about anthropomorphizing horses. They are not people. I am not defending Sherriffs training methods, but he has had success with other horses not just Zen.

    I agree. And Sherriffs didn't "mold" Coz or Zi. As demonstrated by their races, Coz had one speed and Zi had one run. You can't out train that. That's natural ability.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Me
    I'm glad he has her
    KMM said:

    For one thing, Coz and Zi were not top notch racehorses, and the end results may have been the same with any trainer. Be careful about anthropomorphizing horses. They are not people. I am not defending Sherriffs training methods, but he has had success with other horses not just Zen.

    The issue of method and results isn't confined to just Coz and Zi. You can label them based on race results, your prerogative, but the barn has seen lower numbers throughout. This on the heels of increased activity at sales. Money has been invested in good stock over the last few years. I've followed the sales. Return hasn't been there.
    You can dismiss the people who have legitimate questions of training method, using disrespectful verbiage to attach ignorance, but maybe pointing out success in method would be better.
  • VA: Well, why not be a bit "disappointed".. This same scenario has been going on since Coz... Nobody is saying anything bad bout Shirreffs, its just that he does the same thing with all his horses, especially Zenyatta's babies. Maybe they do not want to run in a shadow roll, maybe they need to be trained differently than Zenyatta was. Heck, Zenyatta would have probably done exactly what she did in racing with any trainer, Zen was a 'rare" horse and she just wanted to win, no matter what type of race she was in. But, that certainly doesn't mean that EVERY one of her babies be trained the same way.. I think Coz is happier than ever now, but maybe because he did not like the way he was expected to race.Ziconic at least acted like he wanted to race, but when they had him losing to another one of Mosses horse, I think he lost his "want" to be at the front. Will the baby girl be done the same way? Most likely, with the same results. Dog showing for example. When your dog is with a certain handler who you have used forever and is not winning , just kinda picking up a point or to at shows, not liking where he is and who he is with. So, you change handlers and BAM, the dog starts winning and winning , acts happy and LOVES showing. A good owner will see the difference and its because the dog LOVES the handler and how he is being trained and shown. I see the same scenario with baby girl... She will be treated the same as the other horses in John's barn and trained like Zenyatta was trained.. Might have worked great for Zenyatta, but as shown, NOT with Coz or Ziconic. I forsee the same thing with the filly, same stuff, different day.. Very disappointing and not very hopeful for a different outcome...

    Could not have said it better.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited June 2018
    You are the disrespectful one tincup. I haven't been. Go try and slur someone else. It is what you seem to try to be good at.
  • Okay. I had my say and I'm glad to see a few others see my point. Obviously if Shireffs' methods were no good, his horses would never make it on the boards at all and very soon he would have no more horses to train. He does have winners, too. He has to work with the horses he has. Gormley and Royal Mo did very well. He was perfectly able to modify his methods to suit those two horses. So, the upshot of it all is, with 17Z time will tell.
  • tincuptincup Member

    KMM said:

    You are the disrespectful one tincup. I haven't been. Go try and slur someone else. It is what you seem to try to be good at.

    More labeling? Respect is a funny word.
    Slur.??? Not so funny, but let's move beyond the Obama semantics.
    Choosing to use anthropomorphic was a slight, used to tell.
    Take the above comment
    Lioness said:

    KMM said:

    For one thing, Coz and Zi were not top notch racehorses, and the end results may have been the same with any trainer. Be careful about anthropomorphizing horses. They are not people. I am not defending Sherriffs training methods, but he has had success with other horses not just Zen.

    I agree. And Sherriffs didn't "mold" Coz or Zi. As demonstrated by their races, Coz had one speed and Zi had one run. You can't out train that. That's natural ability.
    You may not be able to train out of a one run horse, but you can certainly race to strength. Picking races and conditions can be more important then ability. Building on strength, more important then expectation.
    Training isn't just getting a horse not to kill you.
    Game on dude was a one trick pony.
    Period

  • The only reason anyone has heard of Sherriffs is Zenyatta, not the other way around. If his "rep" was based on Coz and Zi's success, at any level they've run, he'd be anonymous, an also ran, just like they are. Maybe that teenager should be given Zi and a trainer's license....
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