Bookings for Mares 2019

I know this seems early with 2018 foals having not even been born yet and most matings for 2018 not having even been decided yet but I figured I would make this discussion now anyway.
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Comments

  • Songbird --> Tapit
  • Songbird --> Tapit

    Let's hope they are both still healthy and able to breed.
  • Question to those in the horse industry, or those with previous experience. Since TJC requires live cover, are breeding decisions usually made this far out? I know in conformation dog shows, we often can try this with a young bitch and hope she has an easy time of it, but we have the luxury of fresh chilled and frozen semen. Bitches can also have litters more often. I get it's apples and oranges, but geez, counting on a stallion and mare to both be okay in two years seems risky. Not just speaking about Tapit and Songbird, just a general question and observations.
  • sarinne said:

    Question to those in the horse industry, or those with previous experience. Since TJC requires live cover, are breeding decisions usually made this far out? I know in conformation dog shows, we often can try this with a young bitch and hope she has an easy time of it, but we have the luxury of fresh chilled and frozen semen. Bitches can also have litters more often. I get it's apples and oranges, but geez, counting on a stallion and mare to both be okay in two years seems risky. Not just speaking about Tapit and Songbird, just a general question and observations.

    @sarinne I'm not an expert on TB breeding by any means, just a fan, but I believe most owners will wait to announce the matings for a while at least for mares who are due to foal the next year (although Gen Hill Farm has already announced the matings planned for their mares next year.) It might be different for maiden mares though?
  • So have they already decided on a 2019 mating for Songbird?
  • Rachel said:

    So have they already decided on a 2019 mating for Songbird?

    @Rachel Most likely yes. The end of the Blood Horse article saying she would be bred to Arrogate for 2018 says that Mandy Pope intends to breed her to Tapit for 2019.
  • jaefeatheredjaefeathered Member
    edited November 2017
    Firefoot (Tapizar half-sister to Bandbox) --- Bayern

    Damnit. I've posted this in the wrong thread twice now. She's going to him in 2018.
  • Thanks for answering, @QueenZFan22, but to clarify, there are other breeding programs that have announced their 2019 bookings? It just seems so premature. What if another American Pharoah happens next year, a horse very suitable for their mare? Are they already locked in?
  • sarinne said:

    Thanks for answering, @QueenZFan22, but to clarify, there are other breeding programs that have announced their 2019 bookings? It just seems so premature. What if another American Pharoah happens next year, a horse very suitable for their mare? Are they already locked in?

    @sarinne no not for 2019 I meant Glen Hill Farm has released their planned bookings for 2018 (even before any of their 2018 foals are born.) Sorry I didn't clarify that.
  • sarinne said:

    Thanks for answering, @QueenZFan22, but to clarify, there are other breeding programs that have announced their 2019 bookings? It just seems so premature. What if another American Pharoah happens next year, a horse very suitable for their mare? Are they already locked in?

    @sarinne no not for 2019 I meant Glen Hill Farm has released their planned bookings for 2018 (even before any of their 2018 foals are born.) Sorry I didn't clarify that.
    No problem, @QueenZFan22, thanks for clearing that up. I would be interested to know if you find any other instances like this. I'm really not judging.....it just puzzles me. But I'm open to learning if anyone has anything to add. @EliRose @Zenyen ?
  • Not sure what you're asking Sarinne?

    It is entirely reasonable that by this point in 2017 farms would be nailing down their 2018 mating plans because there is A LOT of paperwork involved.

    Most breeding plans involve the mare owner submitting an application to the farm standing their first choice stallion. The stallion manager will review applications and will approve those he/she believes will best serve the stallion's career. Those rejected will sometimes be offered suggestions for other stallions on the farm who might be a better fit.

    It's a process. Mare owners don't just show up with money and hand and say "here she is, put her in the shed with your boy."

    Plus, even though it doesn't seem like it when you're talking 150+ mares in a year, but these stallions don't have unlimited slots on their dance card. If farms know who they want, they need to get in there quick to secure a place in the book. Some of these farms have also probably been waiting for a couple of years to get on a popular stallion's book.
  • Thanks for answering, Zenyen. I apologize for not being a good wordsmith lol

    I understand the practicality and limitations that would lead to the planning you mentioned. My questions essentially surround deciding which stallion a mare should be sent to first when plotting their broodmare career, including prioritizing and risk (which I understand is always there). I guess I'm just having flashbacks of the many top stallions lost in their prime, including instances such as Harlan's Holiday. And mares who had severe foaling issues. I know you can't predict that, so I realize the first stallion choice for a maiden mare would be made with utmost caution. I guess, I kinda just want to pick your brain, if you don't mind! :)

    I also would love to hear how breeders would make these decisions given the market, since @EliRose brought that up, if it's okay to explore. Thanks!

    Also @QueenZFan22 I'm sorry I hijacked your thread. Anyone who is willing to chat with me feel free to PM. Thanks again everyone -- the breeding part of the industry fascinates me. :)
  • sarinne said:

    Thanks for answering, Zenyen. I apologize for not being a good wordsmith lol

    I understand the practicality and limitations that would lead to the planning you mentioned. My questions essentially surround deciding which stallion a mare should be sent to first when plotting their broodmare career, including prioritizing and risk (which I understand is always there). I guess I'm just having flashbacks of the many top stallions lost in their prime, including instances such as Harlan's Holiday. And mares who had severe foaling issues. I know you can't predict that, so I realize the first stallion choice for a maiden mare would be made with utmost caution. I guess, I kinda just want to pick your brain, if you don't mind! :)

    I also would love to hear how breeders would make these decisions given the market, since @EliRose brought that up, if it's okay to explore. Thanks!

    Also @QueenZFan22 I'm sorry I hijacked your thread. Anyone who is willing to chat with me feel free to PM. Thanks again everyone -- the breeding part of the industry fascinates me. :)

    @sarinne No problem at all. I also am fascinated by the TB breeding side (and horse breeding as a whole) so i love to learn new things i might not know about it. So hyjack away lol.
  • Thank you for understanding, @QueenZFan22! There is no better way to learn than by asking questions, I figure, but I didn't want to step on your toes. :) I really enjoy some of the discussions that happen on this forum, and am always open to learning.
  • Sarinne, I was surprised that Mandy’s intention to go to Tapit in 2019 was announced. We all know that a lot of unfortunate scenarios can transpire between now and then. I do hope that will not be the case and all goes well leading up to a Tapit breeding. I just think that the nexus to Arrogate didn’t start with Mandy. It does put me to thought that maybe the Arrogate breeding took a bit more persuasion from the consultants then truth be told and Tapit was Mandy’s choice from the get-go but someone else really pushed for Arrogate and closed the deal with “you can always go to Tapit for her second breeding”. I’m not suggesting Mandy is a pushover, she obviously had the final say, but we know she loves Tapit and War Front. The way the article ends “Sweezey said Pope intends to breed the two-time champion Songbird to Gainesway's leading sire Tapit next year”, makes me think that Mandy made it known to her inner circle that she would try something a bit unconventional the first year, but Songbird was going to Tapit in 2019. That’s perhaps why it came out so early. Let’s hope Tapit remains healthy for years to come, not only for Songbird, but for all the other potential mares in his future bookings.
  • Sarinne, I was surprised that Mandy’s intention to go to Tapit in 2019 was announced. We all know that a lot of unfortunate scenarios can transpire between now and then. I do hope that will not be the case and all goes well leading up to a Tapit breeding. I just think that the nexus to Arrogate didn’t start with Mandy. It does put me to thought that maybe the Arrogate breeding took a bit more persuasion from the consultants then truth be told and Tapit was Mandy’s choice from the get-go but someone else really pushed for Arrogate and closed the deal with “you can always go to Tapit for her second breeding”. I’m not suggesting Mandy is a pushover, she obviously had the final say, but we know she loves Tapit and War Front. The way the article ends “Sweezey said Pope intends to breed the two-time champion Songbird to Gainesway's leading sire Tapit next year”, makes me think that Mandy made it known to her inner circle that she would try something a bit unconventional the first year, but Songbird was going to Tapit in 2019. That’s perhaps why it came out so early. Let’s hope Tapit remains healthy for years to come, not only for Songbird, but for all the other potential mares in his future bookings.

    Interesting you put it that way @Especially_Horses. My first thought when i heard that she planned to send Songbird to Tapit in 2019 instead of next year was "why not just send her to Tapit now?" Then I had thought that maybe Tapit being such a sought after sire was probably already booked for 2018 (or if not already close to being booked.)
  • Sarinne, I was surprised that Mandy’s intention to go to Tapit in 2019 was announced. We all know that a lot of unfortunate scenarios can transpire between now and then. I do hope that will not be the case and all goes well leading up to a Tapit breeding. I just think that the nexus to Arrogate didn’t start with Mandy. It does put me to thought that maybe the Arrogate breeding took a bit more persuasion from the consultants then truth be told and Tapit was Mandy’s choice from the get-go but someone else really pushed for Arrogate and closed the deal with “you can always go to Tapit for her second breeding”. I’m not suggesting Mandy is a pushover, she obviously had the final say, but we know she loves Tapit and War Front. The way the article ends “Sweezey said Pope intends to breed the two-time champion Songbird to Gainesway's leading sire Tapit next year”, makes me think that Mandy made it known to her inner circle that she would try something a bit unconventional the first year, but Songbird was going to Tapit in 2019. That’s perhaps why it came out so early. Let’s hope Tapit remains healthy for years to come, not only for Songbird, but for all the other potential mares in his future bookings.

    Interesting you put it that way @Especially_Horses. My first thought when i heard that she planned to send Songbird to Tapit in 2019 instead of next year was "why not just send her to Tapit now?" Then I had thought that maybe Tapit being such a sought after sire was probably already booked for 2018 (or if not already close to being booked.)
    Supposedly Tapit is no longer covering maidens, period.

    Announcing plans for 2019 is just asking for trouble IMO. Maybe I'm just supersitious but . . .
  • If Mandy is looking to put the Arrogate/Songbird offspring through the ring to continue to work towards recouping some of the money she has outlay, then this would be the best opportunity to maximize her ROI in the short term.

    Otherwise she'd have to wait 5 to 6 years.

    Think about it this way. If the Mosses had sold Zenyatta in foal to Bernardini they would have gotten a maximum ROI on the open market. Zenyatta would be riding her championship mare status, Bernardini had his best crop racing and the Industry -by it's very nature- is full of gamblers who would see it as a blank slate/best case scenario.

    Had they sent CoZ through the ring as a yearling, he probably would have fetched his top value as well.

    Now? If they put CoZ through the ring or even Zenyatta? The monetary value will have tanked compared to what it was back when it was all an unknown.

    An Arrogate/Songbird foal is going to fetch it's highest possible price (short term) in the sale ring when it is from the first crop of both. Then we wait 3 years to see what Arrogate's get do on the track and if he lives up to hype as Unbridled Song's heir, she can send Songbird back to him.
  • Thank you everyone for posting! This was the kind of discussion and answers I was looking for. :) The ROI angle occured to me because of Elirose's earlier post, Zenyen, thanks for laying it out for me. Thanks Elirose for the tidbit about Tapit and maidens, that's interesting.....and I can see why they might do that, especially with his limited book, and record. I guess all my questions started with them tipping their hand for Tapit in 2019 in the article. Heck when I did an 11 year old frozen semen breeding in 2011, I wouldn't even name the dog on Facebook. Just asked for good vibes, despite being begged. I only ended up with one boy and one girl, but wow, what an impact on my breeding program that baby girl alone has made now, never minding her brother ended up a top winning dog. But to each their own, I guess! Lol
  • The Tapit angle was something I heard from a comment on Bloodhorse (not sure if it's true or not since I have no connection to Tapit whatsoever). Apparently he has become a bit aggressive during the breeding process, and they don't want maidens endangering themselves, Tapit, and/or others when he becomes a bit rowled up in the shed and a broodmare has not experienced the whole situation before. Songbird could easily get in Tapit's book no problem based on her record and status; however, there is very much a safety concern if this actually is the case, and they should (and are) play by the no-maiden rules.
  • Thanks, @Lioness -- even more helpful info!! :)
  • I would have to take that suggestion on the "no maiden" rule with a grain of salt I think.

    This is why they have maiden mares jumped by a teaser stallion in an apron a couple of times. Remember, the diary explained this procedure happening for Zenyatta before she went to Bernardini? That way the maiden -and her handlers! - aren't coming to the stallion's "court" completely unprepared. They have an idea of how reactive she is, the stallion handlers know how aggressive he is and everybody works from there.

    I'd be more inclined to think that due to his popularity they have instituted a "no-maiden" rule because why waste a slot on his dance card on an unknown? When you have proven mares and up and coming mares wanting in the shed, give the slots to them and let the maiden get a foal on the ground. Then, when you see what she produced, then bring her to his court. It really would be the easiest way to trim down the applications for his book and even then I'm sure they are sending away a lot of highly qualified mares already.
  • Thanks Zenyen. That's kind of what i thought by mentioning his book size and record. So, they would be most likely take a stakes producing mare, than a graded winning maiden mare? That makes sense.

    I'm sorry if I'm making this more difficult then it is. I appreciate everyone's time and I am always looking to learn. :)

    @Especially_Horses - i didn't mean to overlook your observations and they are interesting. The article mentioned Mandy loving Arrogate. Does anyone know if she's used Unbridled's Song or any of his sons before?
  • I can't recall her breeding to US (was she even in the game at that point?) and most of his sons have been iffy so far. Buuuut she did buy Unrivaled Belle, who is of rather similar type to Arrogate.
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