Should we always breed the best to the best?

Below is this great article by C A Sharp, who is a famous breeding genetics scientist in Australian Shepherd. As a Aussie Breeder I really respect what she had to say. I am sure there are many differences between breeding dogs and horses, but I wonder if there is a correlation between a dog’s drive to work and a horse’s desire to run. So here is my question, Zenyatta has been breed to some of the best stallions out there, and yes we only have 2 runner to look at, but could there ever be a instance for the Moses to look at options that are not so obvious? It may be a stupid question, but is there ever a instance where a breeder will try using a lower class stallion? Maybe Zenyatta has star enough in her blood and all she needs is a stallion that would allow her genes to be “passed down” to the next generation ? Again, it may be a stupid question on my part.

Here is the article.

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/how-breeding-the-best-to-the-best-can-be-worse

*Sorry if my English is a bit broken, it is not my first language.
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Comments

  • If you have no success breeding the 'best' to the 'best' (or most obvious), then try something different, something on the edge.
  • I wonder that too. She's gone to some nice stallions that while they DO get good runners they aslo have a more "commercial" appeal as well. Going alon this line here are some stallions that while they still have good breeding they aren't considered "top" stallions (but some might be up and coming) that would nick well with her. (also I'm bored and a huge pedigree nerd.)
    Air Force Blue: A++
    Classic Empire: C
    Fusaichi Pegasus: D
    Giant's Causeway: B
    Magician (IRE): A+
    Munnings: B
    Shanghai Bobby: A++
    Tale of the Cat: D
    Afleet Alex: A++
    Karakontie (JPN): B
    Albertus Maximus: C+
    I Want Revenge: B
    Perfect Soul (IRE): A
    Protonico: C
    Run Away and Hide: C
    Sky Kingdom: D
    Jimmy Creed: D
    Cinco Charlie: A
    Medal Count: B+
  • sarinnesarinne Member
    edited November 2017
    I'm a dog breeder and a pedigree nerd there too, I breed for conformation shows. But in regards to horses, I also have an interest in pedigrees and breeding practices. As I mentioned in the Japanese thread, it would be nice, since Zenyatta can't go to Deep Impact, to send her to a Halo line stallion (More Than Ready!!!), as the Japan Cup winner Cheval Grand is out of a Machiavellian mare who has produced tremendously bred on the Halo cross to Sunday Silence sons. What is the shame in breeding her for turf? Success is success!
  • I wonder that too. She's gone to some nice stallions that while they DO get good runners they aslo have a more "commercial" appeal as well. Going alon this line here are some stallions that while they still have good breeding they aren't considered "top" stallions (but some might be up and coming) that would nick well with her. (also I'm bored and a huge pedigree nerd.)
    Air Force Blue: A++
    Classic Empire: C
    Fusaichi Pegasus: D
    Giant's Causeway: B
    Magician (IRE): A+
    Munnings: B
    Shanghai Bobby: A++
    Tale of the Cat: D
    Afleet Alex: A++
    Karakontie (JPN): B
    Albertus Maximus: C+
    I Want Revenge: B
    Perfect Soul (IRE): A
    Protonico: C
    Run Away and Hide: C
    Sky Kingdom: D
    Jimmy Creed: D
    Cinco Charlie: A
    Medal Count: B+

    Is interesting because you look at a stallion like Shanghai Bobby, who’s fee is only 15 thousand, would the Moses ever consider that? I personally feel it might be worth trying something outside of the box.
  • @Julky -- I didn't mean to avoid discussion the question you brought up. I think a simple answer you are going to get is that lower priced stallions are either unproven or haven't thrown good enough runners in recent years to allow them to command a high price. Their pedigrees also are part of that equation. I am very interested to see how Zenyatta crosses to Storm Cat.........it'll be a few years before this foal is ready to assess. And she's not getting any younger, so they are trying to make each breeding count, rather than experiment, if you will. I still would love to see a More Than Ready pairing.
  • sarinne said:

    I'm a dog breeder and a pedigree nerd there too, I breed for conformation shows. But in regards to horses, I also have an interest in pedigrees and breeding practices. As I mentioned in the Japanese thread, it would be nice, since Zenyatta can't go to Deep Impact, to send her to a Halo line stallion (More Than Ready!!!), as the Japan Cup winner Cheval Grand is out of a Machiavellian line mare who has produced tremendously bred on the Halo cross to Sunday Silence sons. What is the shame in breeding her for turf? Success is success!

    Interesting you mention More Than Ready @sarinne I had thought about him but had forgot to add him to the list. Here is how he nicks with her: A++. Also since you mentioned Japan i tried to nick her with Hat Trick but for some reason he doesn't show up on True Nicks?
  • sarinne said:

    I'm a dog breeder and a pedigree nerd there too, I breed for conformation shows. But in regards to horses, I also have an interest in pedigrees and breeding practices. As I mentioned in the Japanese thread, it would be nice, since Zenyatta can't go to Deep Impact, to send her to a Halo line stallion (More Than Ready!!!), as the Japan Cup winner Cheval Grand is out of a Machiavellian line mare who has produced tremendously bred on the Halo cross to Sunday Silence sons. What is the shame in breeding her for turf? Success is success!

    Interesting you mention More Than Ready @sarinne I had thought about him but had forgot to add him to the list. Here is how he nicks with her: A++. Also since you mentioned Japan i tried to nick her with Hat Trick but for some reason he doesn't show up on True Nicks?
    I've never done a nicking program before -- but have always thought More Than Ready over Zenyatta would be an amazing pedigree full of potential. So, @QueenZFan22 I can't help with nicking on Hat Trick, sorry -- other than to say maybe he no longer stands in the US? But the thought of Zenyatta to a Halo line stallion came again to me today when reading the Japanese thread and seeing that Halwa Sweet, a Machiavellian mare, has three GI winners from sons of Sunday Silence (Halo). Hat Trick would be an interesting thought if he's in the US.
  • sarinne said:

    @Julky -- I didn't mean to avoid discussion the question you brought up. I think a simple answer you are going to get is that lower priced stallions are either unproven or haven't thrown good enough runners in recent years to allow them to command a high price. Their pedigrees also are part of that equation. I am very interested to see how Zenyatta crosses to Storm Cat.........it'll be a few years before this foal is ready to assess. And she's not getting any younger, so they are trying to make each breeding count, rather than experiment, if you will. I still would love to see a More Than Ready pairing.

    I understand they want to make every breeding count, but the team ain’t winning at this point. I really hope princess 17 will changes the game, and show Z can produce nice babies. I just wonder if this pattern continues, will they ever take a risk on a lower great stallion or will they only send her between the most successful ones.
  • carolinarkansascarolinarkansas hot springs, arkansasMember
    I am a More Than Ready fan....big time. My second choice would be Lonhro....because he is just so gorgeous.
  • Frankly, I see Into Mischief as a step down from the other stallions they've visited (besides Bernardini) ;) but I'd love for them to "think turf" and send her to More Than Ready.
  • I wonder that too. She's gone to some nice stallions that while they DO get good runners they aslo have a more "commercial" appeal as well. Going alon this line here are some stallions that while they still have good breeding they aren't considered "top" stallions (but some might be up and coming) that would nick well with her. (also I'm bored and a huge pedigree nerd.)
    Air Force Blue: A++
    Classic Empire: C
    Fusaichi Pegasus: D
    Giant's Causeway: B
    Magician (IRE): A+
    Munnings: B
    Shanghai Bobby: A++
    Tale of the Cat: D
    Afleet Alex: A++
    Karakontie (JPN): B
    Albertus Maximus: C+
    I Want Revenge: B
    Perfect Soul (IRE): A
    Protonico: C
    Run Away and Hide: C
    Sky Kingdom: D
    Jimmy Creed: D
    Cinco Charlie: A
    Medal Count: B+

    Just a few more to add to the list.
    Langfuhr: A++
    Mr Speaker: C+
    Lentenor: B+
    Red Rocks (IRE): A+
    Big Blue Kitten: B+
    Real Solution: B+
  • Somebody please explain this "nicking" business to me again.
    Isn't it based on earnings?
  • whoodler said:

    Somebody please explain this "nicking" business to me again.
    Isn't it based on earnings?

    @whoodler I believe it's based on how a horse from one sire line (example A.P. Indy) nick with another sire line (example MdO) but I could be wrong?
  • I am going to offer the following from an attempt at an objective perspective. It is not to belittle this website, make anyone feel bad or deny Zenyatta is a very unique and wonderful individual.

    Okay? Right, here we go.

    There is one flawed assumption in many of these arguments and that is the idea that Zenyatta is 'the best' from a breeding perspective.

    Zenyatta is an exceptional individual, who benefited from the best traits of her sire and her dam. Her racing strengths were her size/stride and her mental ability to reel in the herd down the stretch and her alpha personality that turned back lesser animals.

    She was also late to mature, had no tactical turn of foot, and the one time she looked an individual in the eye and he DIDN'T yield, she got beat.

    Her positive traits served her excellently, as did the way she was managed by the Mosses and by Sherriffs.

    The problem is, those positive traits, are not qualities you look for in your "best breeding" stock. Because you need all of them in the individual in order for that system to work.

    For example. Ziconic. Ziconic has the heart and the mind to win, but without his mother's massive stride to help him make up ground when he comes from behind, he suffers from her inability to be tactical. He needs to be able to turn it on, run close enough to keep up with the pace, then relax and then turn it back on down the stretch. Unfortunately, like his mother, he is a one run horse and as such the closest he can get is 2nd 3rd.

    Cozmic One has the size and the stride (to a certain extent, I still argue his front end is like an egg beater) but he doesn't have the heart and mind to apply that stride to running down the herd. He's also, from all reports, too nervy to be that alpha 'I'm going by and you aren't stopping me' personality.

    If we look back along Zenyatta's female line, the "best" in terms of producing winners was V and her daughters Where's Bailey and Treasure Trail. Think about that for a moment. Balance and Zenyatta were V's best runners, hands down but from a producing standpoint, Where's Bailey and Treasure Trail have produced twice as many winners EACH, as either Balance or Zenyatta combined.

    Set Them Free was a much stronger and more consistent broodmare than V.

    Again I know this sounds harsh but I went through this heartbreak with Genuine Risk. To me Genuine Risk was my heroine of the story, a hard running little girlie girl of a filly who put the boys in their place. When she was retired and went to Secretariat, it was the dream mating and it ended in tragedy. From then forward it was tragedy, after tragedy until finally she had a living foal. And he did nothing on the track, eventually was siring polo ponies and ended up on Craigslist for $500.00 dollars. Her other living foal was gelded fairly quickly and now lives the life of a hunter jumper.

    Genuine Risk outran her pedigree and her family, but without that pedigree and family to support her she didn't have a deep genetic background to pass on to her foals. Zenyatta is in the same boat. Yes she has Street Cry on top, but Mamma V and her line were journeyman stock at best.

    In my opinion, Zenyatta is not "the best" in terms of breeding and she needs a stallion to improve her. She was the best on the track as an expression of the best from her sire and from her dam, but she will never reproduce herself because that is not in her genetic foundation. Honestly, if he weren't so expensive, the Mosses might have been best served to send Zenyatta to Tapit a couple more times. He has been improving his mares since he first went to the shed and a couple more shakes of the genetic bag, they might have pulled a slightly larger offspring who put it together. Because except for his size, Ziconic has a lot of the other best traits Zenyatta has on offer to the next generation.
  • You are right Zenyen, but what a dose of ice water. :'(
  • Absolutely the best explanation and summation of not just the Queen, but breeding in general I have read anywhere. Thanks.
  • Thank you, Zenyen.
  • Very well written post, Zenyen. It wasn't as harsh as you might think, and I don't disagree. But she's not going to be pensioned just for lack of winners. I think Julky was trying to inspire discussion as far as thinking outside of the box for her. Maybe Into Mischief was outside of the box for some (setting aside her needing to go to a very fertile stallion, at that specific time)?
  • sarinne said:

    Very well written post, Zenyen. It wasn't as harsh as you might think, and I don't disagree. But she's not going to be pensioned just for lack of winners. I think Julky was trying to inspire discussion as far as thinking outside of the box for her. Maybe Into Mischief was outside of the box for some (setting aside her needing to go to a very fertile stallion, at that specific time)?

    Gotcha. In that vein, I had actually rambled about this somewhere else but to bring it here.

    My out of the box suggestion would be Mshawish. My rational is to breed her like they breed V. Obviously they can't go to a Street Cry but Balance was sired by Thunder Gulch.

    Mshawish has MdO on the top, and his dam is a daughter of Thunder Gulch. He's a sprinter, miler with a nice big shoulder and a good balanced size for her. He also ran from 2 to age 6 so a good solid 23 starts to his credit.

    Only problem is he's unproven.

  • If the goal is to add speed to her genetic makeup up, why not cross her to a sprinter? I know the old saying, cross a sprinter to a stayer and you will get a horse with the speed of a plodder and the saying power of a sprinter, but if you want to add fast twitch muscle to a line, wouldn't a sprinter be the best place to start?
  • Everyone, please feel free to ramble away! We don't all read the same threads, but I think this one is pretty timely and of interest for almost everyone that reads, and no matter your background, your thoughts are always welcomed by this reader. @Zenyen, I hope you don't feel like I've chastised you, that was not my intent, because I usually think you are completely on point, and your contributions encouraged by many, including, as you know, by me. :) About your mention about Thunder Gulch -- was the newly pensioned Point Given his most well known son? At stud? I understand Point Given was not the right fit conformationally for Zenyatta, but I wanted to ask that since you brought up that line. That's where my knowledge of TB history and pedigree comes up short.

    camp6311, I think it's been mentioned before about sending Zenyatta to speed, Speighstown specifically I beleve, by my dying brain doesn't know where we ended with that. lol I'd love to talk more about that. :)
  • I agree with Sarinne, that is exactly why I created the post. I love hearing other people’s perspective. It is one of my favorite subjects to read about. They more people’s prospective we have the more interesting the conversation gets!


    sarinne said:

    Everyone, please feel free to ramble away! We don't all read the same threads, but I think this one is pretty timely and of interest for almost everyone that reads, and no matter your background, your thoughts are always welcomed by this reader. @Zenyen, I hope you don't feel like I've chastised you, that was not my intent, because I usually think you are completely on point, and your contributions encouraged by many, including, as you know, by me. :) About your mention about Thunder Gulch -- was the newly pensioned Point Given his most well known son? At stud? I understand Point Given was not the right fit conformationally for Zenyatta, but I wanted to ask that since you brought up that line. That's where my knowledge of TB history and pedigree comes up short.

    camp6311, I think it's been mentioned before about sending Zenyatta to speed, Speighstown specifically I beleve, by my dying brain doesn't know where we ended with that. lol I'd love to talk more about that. :)

  • I personally don’t take offense to statistics and while they might be cause for pause it’s too bad they can’t be offered up without having to provide a preemptive “not meaning to offend anyone”. The deficiencies of Coz and Zi have been outlined numerous time by many posters, as well as armchair advice and “would of, could of, should of” statements on how things might have been turned around. I’m including myself here by the way.

    I wish I could find it (and maybe KMM can repeat), but KMM made one of the most poignant comments about the death of Z Princess; something to the fact that with her death we might have also witnessed the death of Zenyatta’s broodmare legacy. There was an interesting article in the Bloodhorse a couple of weeks ago about birth order and racing prowess. In a nutshell statistics show that the first and third foal and the first filly of a mare are most likely to be her best racers. Obviously, there are always exceptions or we wouldn’t have Secretariat.

    Maybe Zenyatta was never meant to be an exceptional producer, maybe she’s been unlucky. There are enough significantly tragic events surrounding her broodmare career for debate on both sides.

    In friendly conversation, I do have a different perspective on Zenyatta’s one losing race. The statement “the one time she looked an individual in the eye and he DIDN'T yield, she got beat”. I don’t believe it was because Blame didn’t yield, but because of the ride Zenyatta got that day.
  • QueenZFan22QueenZFan22 Member
    edited December 2017
    Zenyen said:

    sarinne said:

    Very well written post, Zenyen. It wasn't as harsh as you might think, and I don't disagree. But she's not going to be pensioned just for lack of winners. I think Julky was trying to inspire discussion as far as thinking outside of the box for her. Maybe Into Mischief was outside of the box for some (setting aside her needing to go to a very fertile stallion, at that specific time)?

    Gotcha. In that vein, I had actually rambled about this somewhere else but to bring it here.

    My out of the box suggestion would be Mshawish. My rational is to breed her like they breed V. Obviously they can't go to a Street Cry but Balance was sired by Thunder Gulch.

    Mshawish has MdO on the top, and his dam is a daughter of Thunder Gulch. He's a sprinter, miler with a nice big shoulder and a good balanced size for her. He also ran from 2 to age 6 so a good solid 23 starts to his credit.

    Only problem is he's unproven.

    Good suggestion @Zenyen. Not to step on your toes but I decided to nick her with him and they nick an A+. And I also decided to nick her with Midnight Storm who is a very versatile horse winning both on the dirt and the turf. They nick a C. But yet he's also unproven.
  • Question

    Has anyone ever nick the cross of an exiting horse?? Ex. What would the nick of Pioneer of a Nile and littlepirncessemma be? What happens when you look back? Do you ever get a mediocre cross turn out incredible?
    Just curious about that one.

    Zenyen said:

    sarinne said:

    Very well written post, Zenyen. It wasn't as harsh as you might think, and I don't disagree. But she's not going to be pensioned just for lack of winners. I think Julky was trying to inspire discussion as far as thinking outside of the box for her. Maybe Into Mischief was outside of the box for some (setting aside her needing to go to a very fertile stallion, at that specific time)?

    Gotcha. In that vein, I had actually rambled about this somewhere else but to bring it here.

    My out of the box suggestion would be Mshawish. My rational is to breed her like they breed V. Obviously they can't go to a Street Cry but Balance was sired by Thunder Gulch.

    Mshawish has MdO on the top, and his dam is a daughter of Thunder Gulch. He's a sprinter, miler with a nice big shoulder and a good balanced size for her. He also ran from 2 to age 6 so a good solid 23 starts to his credit.

    Only problem is he's unproven.

    Good suggestion @Zenyen. Not to step on your toes but I decided to nick her with him and they nick an A+. And I also decided to nick her with Midnight Storm who is a very versatile horse winning both on the dirt and the turf. They nick a C. But yet he's also unproven.
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