Should we always breed the best to the best?

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Comments

  • whoodler said:

    Somebody please explain this "nicking" business to me again.
    Isn't it based on earnings?

    @Julky -- I think whoodler's question which really went unanswered, underlines this. As I understand most nicking programs, you could go back and see that Empire Maker and his sons have produced well bred to (I think I'm remembering Storm Cat???) line mares based on American Pharoah. I'm definitely not one to give you the full run down on that, but I think that's the nuts and bolts of what you and whoodler are asking. Nicking programs seem to be based on earnings when I've looked at them.
  • QueenZFan22QueenZFan22 Member
    edited December 2017
    Julky said:

    Question

    Has anyone ever nick the cross of an exiting horse?? Ex. What would the nick of Pioneer of a Nile and littlepirncessemma be? What happens when you look back? Do you ever get a mediocre cross turn out incredible?
    Just curious about that one.

    Zenyen said:

    sarinne said:

    Very well written post, Zenyen. It wasn't as harsh as you might think, and I don't disagree. But she's not going to be pensioned just for lack of winners. I think Julky was trying to inspire discussion as far as thinking outside of the box for her. Maybe Into Mischief was outside of the box for some (setting aside her needing to go to a very fertile stallion, at that specific time)?

    Gotcha. In that vein, I had actually rambled about this somewhere else but to bring it here.

    My out of the box suggestion would be Mshawish. My rational is to breed her like they breed V. Obviously they can't go to a Street Cry but Balance was sired by Thunder Gulch.

    Mshawish has MdO on the top, and his dam is a daughter of Thunder Gulch. He's a sprinter, miler with a nice big shoulder and a good balanced size for her. He also ran from 2 to age 6 so a good solid 23 starts to his credit.

    Only problem is he's unproven.

    Good suggestion @Zenyen. Not to step on your toes but I decided to nick her with him and they nick an A+. And I also decided to nick her with Midnight Storm who is a very versatile horse winning both on the dirt and the turf. They nick a C. But yet he's also unproven.
    @Julky If your asking what i think you are then the process of "nicking" is just computer generated. Look at Zenyatta and her younger full Brother De Coronado. Zenyatta was a highly successful race horse where as De Coronado just isn't as good (or at least not as good as his connections hoped he would be considering he is a full brother to a very successful race horse. ) Most breeders when choosing matings might look at sites like True Nicks or other similar sites and breed based on that but really until a horse gets to the races there is no sure way to tell if one certain mating is gonna work out.
  • Or using the example of American Pharoah foaled in 2012, here is where the cross was "proven" while he was a foal. Bodemeister is Empire Maker over Storm Cat, also bred by the Zayats. He certainly didn't have all the success on the track as American Pharoah, but he has already proven as a stallion with KY Derby winner in his first crop. Always Dreaming seemed to bloom early, but I'd like to see if any unraced/retired Caro line/Uncle Mo mares go to American Pharoah or Bodemeister this year...... Or how much business Empire Maker or Pioneerof the Nile is getting from Storm Cat mares? Of course, I just follow the pedigrees. The subtleties of the industry are something I know nothing about. This is just something I've seen from following patterns breeders take, and enjoy exploring, talking about and learning. Chip in everyone -- great discussion! Now if my laptop will let me type out a post in less that ten minutes, it'd be nice, but maybe a sign I should shut up before I put my foot in deeper. @Julky, I'm just appealing to you as a dog breeder, and how you follow pedigrees before you plan a litter. :)
  • sarinne said:

    Or using the example of American Pharoah foaled in 2012, here is where the cross was "proven" while he was a foal. Bodemeister is Empire Maker over Storm Cat, also bred by the Zayats. He certainly didn't have all the success on the track as American Pharoah, but he has already proven as a stallion with KY Derby winner in his first crop. Always Dreaming seemed to bloom early, but I'd like to see if any unraced/retired Caro line/Uncle Mo mares go to American Pharoah or Bodemeister this year...... Or how much business Empire Maker or Pioneerof the Nile is getting from Storm Cat mares? Of course, I just follow the pedigrees. The subtleties of the industry are something I know nothing about. This is just something I've seen from following patterns breeders take, and enjoy exploring, talking about and learning. Chip in everyone -- great discussion! Now if my laptop will let me type out a post in less that ten minutes, it'd be nice, but maybe a sign I should shut up before I put my foot in deeper. @Julky, I'm just appealing to you as a dog breeder, and how you follow pedigrees before you plan a litter. :)

    Sorry to get off topic here but I'm glad it's not just my laptop having issues @sarinne hahahaha
  • sarinne said:

    Or using the example of American Pharoah foaled in 2012, here is where the cross was "proven" while he was a foal. Bodemeister is Empire Maker over Storm Cat, also bred by the Zayats. He certainly didn't have all the success on the track as American Pharoah, but he has already proven as a stallion with KY Derby winner in his first crop. Always Dreaming seemed to bloom early, but I'd like to see if any unraced/retired Caro line/Uncle Mo mares go to American Pharoah or Bodemeister this year...... Or how much business Empire Maker or Pioneerof the Nile is getting from Storm Cat mares? Of course, I just follow the pedigrees. The subtleties of the industry are something I know nothing about. This is just something I've seen from following patterns breeders take, and enjoy exploring, talking about and learning. Chip in everyone -- great discussion! Now if my laptop will let me type out a post in less that ten minutes, it'd be nice, but maybe a sign I should shut up before I put my foot in deeper. @Julky, I'm just appealing to you as a dog breeder, and how you follow pedigrees before you plan a litter. :)

    Sorry to get off topic here but I'm glad it's not just my laptop having issues @sarinne hahahaha
    I think mine just wants to be a LAP top and that's all. LOL

    Carry on you guys! I'm sorry I'm yappy tonight. I know it's a Friday night, I'm sure just cause I'm stuck home with dogs doesn't mean you are, and that weekends are busy especially this time of year, but I know you all have thoughts and opinions to discuss no matter what your experience level in any area of life. As @Especially_Horses put so eloquently, we shouldn't have to apologize for that.
  • whoodlerwhoodler Member
    edited December 2017
    I spent a good deal of time on the truenicks site and they provide a lot of... as well as very little info on their program and how it "works." They do say that nicks should be considered as better than average starting with B. AND that scores can change daily. AND that the program doesn't take into consideration the myriad conditions and requirements that are involved with every breeding. They do repeat over and over it is one of many tools that breeders should use in conjunction with each other. Coming up with list of stallions that match a mare's needs and what the breeder wishes to accomplish and then pulling one of those names out of a hat will produce the same results.
    When it comes to horse racing, gambling doesn't begin at the track.
    If you pass on a horse because he is "unproven" you are also passing on the chance to create the one who does the proving.
  • The last sentence.
    I'm trying to remember all the breeders that fought through failure after failure to finally get to a champion of consequence.
    Not the mills of breeding best to best.
    The idea of breeding to full realization.
    Zenyatta is a grass horse.
    Coz should represent the breeding of ap indy into classical grass form.
    If it a dud...you must work harder.
    Bernardini gets success down under.
    Grass transfer.
    California is a an unmined gold field for Pacific ocean access.
    English channel transfers to coz.
    Four years from now buy every flintshire at a cheap price
    Done
  • whoodler said:

    I spent a good deal of time on the truenicks site and they provide a lot of... as well as very little info on their program and how it "works." They do say that nicks should be considered as better than average starting with B. AND that scores can change daily. AND that the program doesn't take into consideration the myriad conditions and requirements that are involved with every breeding. They do repeat over and over it is one of many tools that breeders should use in conjunction with each other. Coming up with list of stallions that match a mare's needs and what the breeder wishes to accomplish and then pulling one of those names out of a hat will produce the same results.
    When it comes to horse racing, gambling doesn't begin at the track.
    If you pass on a horse because he is "unproven" you are also passing on the chance to create the one who does the proving.

    That's why I said early on in this thread that I've never actually done it, just observed when other people have posted nicks and have tried to understand the way in which the program is utilized as a tool. Those were the examples I provided. Your last sentence though, soooooo quotable!
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    edited December 2017
    tincup said:

    The last sentence.
    I'm trying to remember all the breeders that fought through failure after failure to finally get to a champion of consequence.
    Not the mills of breeding best to best.
    The idea of breeding to full realization.
    Zenyatta is a grass horse.
    Coz should represent the breeding of ap indy into classical grass form.
    If it a dud...you must work harder.
    Bernardini gets success down under.
    Grass transfer.
    California is a an unmined gold field for Pacific ocean access.
    English channel transfers to coz.
    Four years from now buy every flintshire at a cheap price
    Done

    No one wants grass in North America. Not enough to support multiple top flight grass stallions like Kitten's Joy, War Front and Dynaformer sons, let alone to support a horse who has done NOTHING on the track.

    Maybe Japan would take him. Maybe Australia where they have the depth of Danehill blood lines to make an A.P Indy / Street Cry grandson worth taking a risk on.

    But at this point CoZ offers nothing, absolutely NOTHING to the breed and he should not be bred.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    There is a great difference being an "unproven" sire with a great racing record and great bloodlines and Coz.
  • But we do want grass in America.
    Dirt speed will wane...as the crop of finishers diminish. California Chrome became beloved for his throw back, while American fakoro was a line to dust.
    My point isn't anyone should breed coz to anything, my point is I would.
    I would for the reasons given, I would because I believe in the line I'm thinking, I would because I don't believe unbridled isn't the best dirt horse ever made.
    I just would do it....and I think I'm right.
  • Let me add this last thing.
    I've looked at every racehorse I know...Coz is perfect for an idea....but I'll give you this, t as tapit throws grass in plenty. I wouldn't mind zi in my experiment.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    Tincup, your dreams and speculations are fun to contemplate. I think the Into Mischief Z2018 might surprise us. I like the Stormcat sireline as a different experiment for her, albeit Souper brother was sired by Giant's Causeway. Stormcat sireline. He was a winner on the grass in allowance races; think he came close, like 4th in a grade 3. What I find more interesting is the success of Leslie's Lady, his dam (IM), who is finessing her blue hen credentials. How will her genes announce themselves in this foal?
  • Talking about pedigrees is fun, I enjoy learning more and more every time, thank you to everyone that shares :) @Zenyen, I forgot also to thank you for mentioning the conformation that one would look for searching for a stallion for Zenyatta, she is definitely an extreme mare. Maybe we could discuss that more too, as was touched on a little before? I'm sure whoodler would certainly agree that phenotype is as important as genotype! As a dog breeder, @Julky , I assume you as well?

    @tincup, I love hearing you daydream out loud!! :) I do that about planning dog matings (that may or may not happen) all the time with friends and co-breeders, it's fun!
  • carolinarkansascarolinarkansas hot springs, arkansasMember
    I freely admit I know next to nothing about all this...but the "best to the best" thing would seem to me to have a built in flaw. It has to unltimately narrow the gene pool and make chances of genetic issues more common....
    so I guess I would be a supporter of "diversity" in breeding....

  • Here's the thing with "the best to the best" and doing it on paper.
    You forget everything that is not on the best side. You assume you will only get what is on the best side.
    She's too tall, he's smaller, he'll bring down the size. Maybe, probably not, but if so, how much? She's got a lot of speed but can;t go past the first turn. He's got a tremendous stride and can go all day, but a Shetland can catch him. So the foal will be quicksilver and a mine full of it.
    You can't pick and choose what is inherited from whom. These things are thrown together willy-nilly. Occasionally, you come up with gold, but more often it's pyrite. You can breed the same two animals to each other, the same two pedigrees together, 100 times and get everything BUT what you want. That is proven every year. What... 20,000 foals a year? Are even 10% of them good, much less exceptional?
    You know what they say...
    if opinions were horses, we'd all be breeding Triple Crown winners.
  • Yes, especially when you can breed not-so-best to not-so-best and get best...... But if you have quality in the pedigree it will bear out. That's my experience in dogs, at least, and I'll start limiting it there. Selection is crucial. I've kept a female that was not the best conformation wise, but was sound moving (balanced) and temperament wise. Because she had the genetics behind her, when linebred to a male that strengthened her weak points IN himself and the pedigree, I was able to get one heck of a litter to her. And go forward with that. That's my experience (simplified for these purposes). I can't even imagine being limited to one baby (read foal) from each mating and not have a choice. Dogs are sooooooooo much easier! :)
  • whoodlerwhoodler Member
    edited December 2017
    Never mind children. When was the last time some young couple picked their partner based on anything besides love and/or finances? No wonder the wold is in the shape it's in!
  • Which is why its so much fun to focus on one single animal.
    also why its interesting to follow Mandy pope, or the Campbell plantation, or albaughs or anyone else building the structure for the future.
    Fast and weak...death
    Long and slow...bankruptcy
    Breed to the money?
    Breed for foundation?
    How long?
  • :lol: whoodler, I've had interesting discussions with my mother about that. My theory is average looking mommies and daddies have the best looking sons and the worst looking daughters. My brother is quite good looking. My sister and I.......

    Yes, @tincup -- I love watching them plan their futures! :)
  • "Proven" in horses (and I imagine in other areas of breeding I don't know I've only ever been around horses) doesn't necessarily mean 'proven to sire/produce winners.'

    A stallion can be proven on the strength of when his first foals are born.

    To date, with the exception of the War Front duo, what Zenyatta has proven as a broodmare is that she is not prepotent. With Cozmic One, he looks more like his grandmother V and the delicate attitude of his sire Bernardini. Ziconic is almost pure Tapit type in terms of physical conformation, though he appears to have his dam's attitude.

    Princess Z appeared to be the best balance of War Front with the best genetic traits of grandmama V's female line. But the War Front/grandmama V seems to be the best cross to V's daughters: at this time.

    Z16 we never saw enough to know how he was balanced out.

    Z17 looks like Cozmic One in that she appears to be of the classic MdO type, with a lot of V expressed as well.

    This is why, at this point, if I were choosing Zenyatta mates, I'd be looking for stallions who crossed well with grandmama V and stallions who are showing that they improve their mares by being prepotent in terms of what they throw through their get. American Pharoah is proving to be prepotent, Tapit, War Front, maybe Mshawish will be as well (don't know yet).

    Grandma V crossed best with Street Cry. Her daughters who could be sent to Street Cry, produced THEIR best runners on the Grandma V/Street Cry cross. The next stallion crossing well with her daughters is War Front, but the Mosses took a break from that pairing, even though that mating gave them their best looking individual to date.

    Interesting fact about the Into Mischief breeding, since we're all kinda scratching our heads here. Into Mischief, on his dam's line goes back to the stallion "Stop the Music". It goes Leslie's Lady --- > Crystal Lady and Crystal Lady was sired by Stop the Music. Stop the Music was the sire of the Mosses personal "blue hen" mare, Set them Free. So if they luck out and get a daughter out of the Into Mischief breeding, they will have built a complete female tail line legacy that combines their best race mare, Zenyatta and their best broodmare Set them Free.
  • I agree with Serinne, I have a male in my program who is not as well put together as I would hope. To be honest with you I would say eh has many flaws, but boy does he produce nice puppies. He just out produces himself every single time. Well I decided to line breed on him. I was worried I was gonna pull all the flaws I had from him, but I felt the male and female really could complement each other and it was worth the rist. Boy was it worth it! I got one of the best litters I ever had!
    That made me change the way I think. After that happened I feel every animal is worth the risk, breeding it at least once to see what you get.

    sarinne said:

    Yes, especially when you can breed not-so-best to not-so-best and get best...... But if you have quality in the pedigree it will bear out. That's my experience in dogs, at least, and I'll start limiting it there. Selection is crucial. I've kept a female that was not the best conformation wise, but was sound moving (balanced) and temperament wise. Because she had the genetics behind her, when linebred to a male that strengthened her weak points IN himself and the pedigree, I was able to get one heck of a litter to her. And go forward with that. That's my experience (simplified for these purposes). I can't even imagine being limited to one baby (read foal) from each mating and not have a choice. Dogs are sooooooooo much easier! :)

  • You're right... in dogs, "proven" means has procreated.

    However,,, there is prepotent and prepotent. Passing the good stuff on once in a while IS better than not at all.
  • Zenyen said:

    This is why, at this point, if I were choosing Zenyatta mates, I'd be looking for stallions who crossed well with grandmama V and stallions who are showing that they improve their mares by being prepotent in terms of what they throw through their get. American Pharoah is proving to be prepotent, Tapit, War Front, maybe Mshawish will be as well (don't know yet).

    Grandma V crossed best with Street Cry. Her daughters who could be sent to Street Cry, produced THEIR best runners on the Grandma V/Street Cry cross. The next stallion crossing well with her daughters is War Front, but the Mosses took a break from that pairing, even though that mating gave them their best looking individual to date.

    Interesting fact about the Into Mischief breeding, since we're all kinda scratching our heads here. Into Mischief, on his dam's line goes back to the stallion "Stop the Music". It goes Leslie's Lady --- > Crystal Lady and Crystal Lady was sired by Stop the Music. Stop the Music was the sire of the Mosses personal "blue hen" mare, Set them Free. So if they luck out and get a daughter out of the Into Mischief breeding, they will have built a complete female tail line legacy that combines their best race mare, Zenyatta and their best broodmare Set them Free.

    I was thinking of AP while reading your post before I got to this point. He has definitely been stamping his foals and throwing some with lovely conformation, like himself. I wish they'd consider him, though that seems like a pipe dream especially at this early point in his stud career.

    Interesting point about Into Mischief and the Mosses. They are probably hoping for a filly!
  • @Zenyen -- thanks for your comprehensive rundown on the bloodlines and your observations! I appreciate that. Your posts are always so informative! :)

    @Julky -- I'm glad I made sense to you :) I bred my average bitch once -- she produced a litter of eight, and I was lucky enough to have four daughters to choose from. The daughter I kept was a flipping amazing show dog! Though she didn't give me a ton of puppies in two litters, her son is my profile pic (previously it had been her great granddaughter). Dogs and race horses are apples and oranges, I TOTALLY get that. But I love learning how breeding is approached in almost every area with every species. I love that you started this thread! :)
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