Cozmic One - Hunter/Jumper Career

@KMM and @Zenyen.

I don't know anything about training a horse for jumping. So how long before they try him over a jump?
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Comments

  • They could have him do poles on the ground right away for trotwork. I think they will give him a few days to adjust, but maybe not. He hasn't done much. They will first have to access his handleability and rideability. I imagine they won't rush him, but the project they are in has goals and deadlines.This rider and her father have trained hunters and jumpers for resale and competition, so I would bank on it that they know what they are doing.

    If Coz demonstrated he was responsive and learned something in his past training, they could put low X jumps (crosspoles) and combine it with other training. He doesn't have to Canter to do these type of jumps. There is virtually no height, but it is all the other stuff he has to get used to: new barn, new people, new visuals. He might do great.

    He could be over those type of jumps in a couple of months, but I wouldn't rush this horse.

    Some resale trainers have the more copacetic OTTBs going over jumps pretty fast: they are good enough riders and may put those low(nonjumps) in there in the second week, depending on the horse.
  • So I know this is a dumb question but.....is he is taken over his first jump with a rider?
  • The rider has to know Coz has learned obedience, a stop, has learned to balanced, listen to his aids (seat, hands, balance of the rider), in a way he delivers consistently.

    One nice thing about trot poles leading up to very low jumps is that the horse has to pay attention to rider, his environment, and learn to be more precise. Horses are intelligent and like to have challenges. I think it is all good.
  • I was trying to envision that first jump. I didn't know if they have the horse do "little" jumps on a lunge line first. Told you I know nothing about this. =)
    KMM said:

    The rider has to know Coz has learned obedience, a stop, has learned to balanced, listen to his aids (seat, hands, balance of the rider), in a way he delivers consistently.

    One nice thing about trot poles leading up to very low jumps is that the horse has to pay attention to rider, his environment, and learn to be more precise. Horses are intelligent and like to have challenges. I think it is all good.

  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    First jump they can do on a lunge line. Breeders free jump young horses without riders to show that they have form and jumping ability. In stallion and mare tests to qualify for breed book ratings, many breeds are free jumped as part of the rating test.

    If you Google free jumping, you will find all kinds of examples.

    Personally, maybe they want to lunge Coz over jumps, but I would want him under a rider fairly soon after that, if that is their plan. There is no single answer to training methods, but maybe on a lunge line without the weight of a rider initially, he can figure out his body in a jump sequence, although this a natural horse talent...jumping.
  • I have a vague memory of Coz doing some ground pole work one summer at Saratoga. Does that ring a bell with anyone else? He was getting in some variety in his training, working in an open field, and--I think--over ground poles, and he seemed happier in his work than just going over the track. (Unless I'm imagining the whole thing.) :D

    Also, jumping is a natural activity for most horses, so it isn't like trying to teach them algebra.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    Yep Jen, there were pictures of him going over cavelletti while on a lunge line at Saratoga. Also doing some work in a pretty field under a rider. That is when some speculated he would be better training at Fair Hill, MD facility which has field course et. Al. Beautiful by the way. Google it if you'd like to.
  • The other thing is that his testorone levels won't go down overnight. :o
  • edited December 2017
    If he was gelded soon after his last official workout on 11/22/2017.....how long before it's normally considered out of a former stallions system?
    KMM said:

    The other thing is that his testorone levels won't go down overnight. :o

  • Thanks for corroborating my memory, KMM.

    He needs to be "let down" in two different ways (from training and from being a stallion), so I'm sure they're taking their time with him. My personal theory about him, though, is that his behavior problems come more from anxiety than studishness, so it's also very important that they win his trust.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    Being off of the track and in his new location should go a long way towards relaxing him. I don't know what kind of turnout he will have there. Some fancy dressage and Hunter/jumper barns only turn out their horses in paddocks for a few hours a day.
  • Coz has never been a breeding stallion but I don't know how studdish he ever acted. I am sure they will keep away from mares, but many show stallions are handible. I don't know about Coz. Depends on the horse. Since he has never been bred, maybe OK to just go ahead. I have heard from 2 months to a year, and sometimes studdish behavior never goes away with later gelded stallions. Again, depends on the individual.
  • One thing I'm curious of is why just hunter/jumper? He could try cross country eventually, John has stated he needs a longer race due to his stamina. He never got tired.
  • He's with a trainer who does hunter/jumper primarily, and she stated that is what she is going to train him to do--with possible equitation. Obviously, Coz will ultimately determine what suits him best. I would love for him to try eventing, maybe he'll branch out if everything goes okay (but that is just a pipedream of mine, really).
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    edited December 2017
    Okay guys can we slow down a little?

    Let's keep this quote in mind:

    "I like the way he is made," she said. "Looks like he's maybe a good candidate for hunter/jumper or maybe an equitation horse, but we will only know after we get him going. Sometimes even then we are not sure what they will do best."

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/225257/cozmic-one-begins-new-off-track-career

    They may get him going and discover he wants to be a polo pony. Right now they don't know and I appreciate that the de Sousa's aren't trying to insist he'll go into any particular discipline.

    The thing about the RRP is that they have 10 months to do this. So from now until October when the finals are held. Back when I was working with retraining OTTBs we would usually let them go out in a large back paddock with some other retires and be a pasture puff for 6 months to a year, before bringing them back to start them.

    However RRP gives de Sousa 10 months.

    Now the good thing is that at least at Saratoga we saw that John S was open to doing more training than gallop around the oval. Still they are going to have to start him off on the ground, probably lunging and driving reins to see how he balances on both sides. He may need some work to remember he can bend right, a lot of OTTBs do.

    Free jumping is used in WarmBlood breed trials. You almost never see it as a training form in American Hunter Jumper methodology. Sometimes young girls will play at sending their horses through a makeshift jump chute but the truth is the WarmBloods are taught to run the chute and it has nothing to do with lunging. In fact I would NEVER lunge a young horse over poles or a fence. With me on the ground that 1000lb animal has the power to pull me around in order to avoid the obstacle. In which case all you've taught the horse is to run out.

    Not the lesson you want.

    So lunging, driving and then flat work. Flat work, Flat work, Flat work. Mind numbing trotting in circles, figure eights, up and down hills. All of this retrains his balance, his suppleness to bend left and right, it will teach him to collect, will teach him to accept cues from the legs down his sides (as opposed to a bugged up jockey position) will rebalance his muscles and will give de Sousa time to form a bond with him.

    Then they'll start adding in poles on the ground. Probably also to help teach him to execute flying changes, give him more training to recognize and obey de Sousa's leg commands.

    While doing all this, if they have the access to land, I would imagine there will be a lot of hacking and trail work. Quite honestly, trotting along behind a trail buddy and popping over a small tree on the ground is not the worst introduction to jumping under saddle. Otherwise it will be crossrails. Crossrails help teach the horse to judge the center of the fence, to target, draws their line of sight downwards until they point where they lose visual contact with the fence.

    You have to remember, within 3 to 2 strides, before they take off, the horse loses sight of the fence. They can't see what is right in front of them, so they learn to gauge their distance, gauge their jump upon approach and then they learn to respond to the rider's leg and seat cues. Crossrails help with this.

    Really, if they put in the ground work (and the ground work is going to be key with this horse), putting him over fences, especially at the height for RRP is something that can be done in the last 6 to 8 weeks before October. If we're all anxious and eager to see a picture of CoZ going over a fence, I think we have a better chance of seeing Zenyatta's 2018 Into Mischief foal before CoZ goes over his first fence.

    They really won't know what CoZ wants, be it a career over fences or one where his four feet never leave the ground, until they start really working with him and exposing him to various opportunities.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    I am not being defensive Zenyen, but my posts were general comments, not what they should do with Coz. Ground work is key: I agree, he may even benefit from longlining. I don't know their training methods are. What you outline is ideal for any horse; it does not mean that they will follow it with Coz. The free jumping was offered up about what warmblood trainers do in training not a recommendation for Coz. The question presented is when are horses started over jumps. My emphasis was on Coz's learning the basics, for what it is worth. I did not recommend any particular training, but they should follow their assessment of Coz's abilities and willingness.
  • edited December 2017
    I appreciate everyone's comments.

    I don't see any reason to slow down the conversation, it's not like we have any influence on Coz' day to day routine/training. This is just a Forum to make comments and ask questions, which is what we were doing.

    Coz was turned over to the de Sousa Stables with an end game in mind the Retired Racehorse Project's $100,000 Thoroughbred Makeover Oct. 4-7, 2018 at the Kentucky Horse Park.. There has to be baby steps and milestones to get there. Do they need to "just see how it goes", and could it go nowhere, yep, but I'm excited to go along for the ride.

    Thanks again to everyone who takes the time to share their expertise and insight.
  • I grew up around polo ponies, and if he turns out to be a good polo pony, I'll eat my hat. Just sayin'. :D
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited December 2017
    He is too big to be a polo pony. They are usually under 16 hands. He won't have a good pivot; think about QH doing their best gigs. Polo ponies tend to be around 15'2 or 3 at the most.
    P.S. I am a polo fan.
  • @Especially_Horses

    My comment about slowing down was to people getting focused on the idea that he is just going to be a hunter/jumper and not an eventer or a polo pony or a pick your discipline of choice.

    There is nothing that is saying he's locked into being a hunter/jumper. Yes that is a prospect for him but even the people who have taken him on with that goal in mind are saying "we don't know where he'll want to go." So he could still go towards eventing or ... anywhere really. The sky is the limit.
  • edited December 2017
    Well, then we'll start Cozmic One - The Eventer. LOL.

    Edit: Just want to say, I don't care if Coz can jump or not. He has been in the spotlight since before being born, and has been scrutinized every which way. The most important thing for me, in the retirement announcement, was that he was gelded and now has a chance to enjoy life and spend outside time with other horses and not locked up in a stall.
    Zenyen said:

    @Especially_Horses

    My comment about slowing down was to people getting focused on the idea that he is just going to be a hunter/jumper and not an eventer or a polo pony or a pick your discipline of choice.

    There is nothing that is saying he's locked into being a hunter/jumper. Yes that is a prospect for him but even the people who have taken him on with that goal in mind are saying "we don't know where he'll want to go." So he could still go towards eventing or ... anywhere really. The sky is the limit.

  • When I saw the heading "Cozmic One -- Hunter/jumper Career" I did think that was putting the cart before the horse, as it were, but it doesn't do any harm to speculate. But I agree, Zenyen, there's absolutely no telling if that's what he'll be doing in the future or if his life will take another direction. I just hope he has fun and stays healthy in some pursuit or other.
  • jen_bloom said:

    When I saw the heading "Cozmic One -- Hunter/jumper Career" I did think that was putting the cart before the horse, as it were, but it doesn't do any harm to speculate. But I agree, Zenyen, there's absolutely no telling if that's what he'll be doing in the future or if his life will take another direction. I just hope he has fun and stays healthy in some pursuit or other.

    Here here!

  • Is the sky the limit? To be an eventer. Really? , Coz has to be an honest horse. Three disciplines: dressage, showjumping and cross country. The rider has to trust him. He has to have a drive to go hard and fast in cross country; to be submissive and yielding in dressage; to be brave and jump big. I don't know if he has it all in his soul.
  • As I said, my eventer comment was a "pipedream." Do I think he could realistically do it? Probably not. But given that's the only other equestrian event I follow after racing (in extremely limited capacity), I'd love to see him try. ;)

    Not sure what he is suited for. That's between him and his trainer!
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