Justify (Scat Daddy - Stage Magic, by Ghostzapper)

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Comments

  • edited July 2018
    whoodler said:

    It is a business.
    And yes, fans get "attached" to certain horses... probably not as many fans among the betting population as those who just like to watch horses run. Owners and trainers and others around the horses get attached too.
    BUT there are often HUGE amounts of money involved. So these decisions are never taken lightly.
    I would like to see Justify prove himself. Sorry to those who disagree, but I am not only UNimpressed by his not running as a 2 YO, I put it in the debit column. And his 6 wins in 112 days shrieks "flash in the pan."
    We each have a personal take on the situation.
    None of us has any stake in it.

    I agree. Running six times against three year olds only will always leave room for doubt about his true abilities. He needed to run a time or two against older horses, and show he could beat them. I would have loved to see him run against the likes of a Gun Runner or even one of the high class fillies that are currently racing.

  • Two comments from paulickreport:

    L > c • 18 hours ago
    Maybe multiple (many) owners are the real problem. What do you think?


    c > L • 17 hours ago
    Agree. When ownership becomes in essence a corporation, the focus turns from sport to business, and the investor's return. Excellent point.
  • I think there is a lot of merit in those comments.
    whoodler said:

    Two comments from paulickreport:

    L > c • 18 hours ago
    Maybe multiple (many) owners are the real problem. What do you think?


    c > L • 17 hours ago
    Agree. When ownership becomes in essence a corporation, the focus turns from sport to business, and the investor's return. Excellent point.

  • whoodlerwhoodler Member
    edited July 2018
    There is a lot of conflict of interest in race horse ownership these days. Bits and pieces of many animals owned by many people/syndicates/etc.

    So much for sportsmanship and pride of ownership. How does one take any credit for a good showing when only "owning" a small percentage?
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    I expect that Coolmore may be behind this more than the current owner partnership.

    As @Lioness said, Coolmore is desperate for a successor to Scat Daddy. They don't need Justify to run against older horses, or against top fillies. They need him in the breeding shed covering those top fillies and hopefully passing on his sire's and his own top genetics.

    We as fans are disappointed but I saw a comment, on Blood Horse I think, where someone very respectfully joked that as a bettor he was more than happy to see Justify off to the shed, because it leveled the playing field.

    Casual Fans want to see him race against older horses and race in the Classic, because he's a superstar. But the bones of the Industry, the people who are feeding money into racing, understand that he is in rarefied air already, and the risk is not worth the reward on the track anymore.

    The risk now and the only place, where he can prove himself that matters, is in the shed.
  • So... Justify doesn't sell as a youngster because he isn't quite right physically.
    Then he doesn't race as a 2 yo because of feet and leg problems.
    Then some miracle happens and he gets healthy for 4 months, runs like the devil, wins the TC.
    Then there is this "filling in the ankle" or maybe not, but he is retired rather than risk running him any more.

    And people are going to flock to him because of his "top genetics?"
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    whoodler said:

    So... Justify doesn't sell as a youngster because he isn't quite right physically.
    Then he doesn't race as a 2 yo because of feet and leg problems.
    Then some miracle happens and he gets healthy for 4 months, runs like the devil, wins the TC.
    Then there is this "filling in the ankle" or maybe not, but he is retired rather than risk running him any more.

    And people are going to flock to him because of his "top genetics?"

    Yes.

    The stallion managers are going to be perfectly aware of his faults, same as every other stallion on their roster and they will select mares from the applications who offset/improve against his faults, just as he will be expected to offset/improve the mares' faults.

    An undefeated, Triple Crown winning son of Scat Daddy? Until his foals prove to either be duds in the sales ring or duds on the track, Coolmore is going to have twice as many applications as they'll have available lines in his book.

  • At least they retired him before he A. either lost when they ran him again like AP or B he retired before breaking down and have nothing left but a body. Money does have much to do with retirement of a horse that the public wants to watch go further.
  • Genetics has a ton to do with the number of break downs, whether on the track or playing catch in the field.

    There is a need to stop breeding JUST to (quote)offset/improve (end quote) faults. People must consider the OTHER side of that idea... breeding to NOT increase/introduce faults.
  • whoodler said:

    Genetics has a ton to do with the number of break downs, whether on the track or playing catch in the field.

    There is a need to stop breeding JUST to (quote)offset/improve (end quote) faults. People must consider the OTHER side of that idea... breeding to NOT increase/introduce faults.

    I'm puzzled by where you are finding this perfect animal of any breed to use in breeding. And why breed if so?
  • The point is people never look at the other side of picking a mate to improve.
    ... I like the topline, the tailset, the head piece... is all well and good.
    BUT for every positive there is a negative... which is mostly ignored unless it is so glaring it overshadows everything else.

    Unfortunately, TBs are less sound and durable than in the past and it seems as long as the animal has made his owners billions and has a title or two, his shortcomings are... tolerated.
  • edited July 2018
    From a previous post: I saw a comment, on Blood Horse I think, where someone very respectfully joked that as a bettor he was more than happy to see Justify off to the shed, because it leveled the playing field.

    I know the above was tongue-in-cheek, but does his retirement really level the playing field? Because of his early retirement we don’t know.

    Was he a shooting star still on its way up (I guess his retirement could be seen as leveling the playing field then) or was he leveling off or maybe going down?

    That’s really what the fans are left wondering. Was he capable of beating older horses and/or improving peers in the Summer and Fall? We all get (well most of us) the Risk, Scat Daddy successor, finances, and such, and speaking for myself I don’t need to be told those obvious things again. Can someone tell me if he was capable of emulating the likes of a Gun Runner, Arrogate, or dare I say California Chrome? For sure now, we aren’t going to find out if his retirement was a true blessing to the competition, especially if another star emerges and we are left with more unanswered questions like “could Justify have beaten him/her”.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    Thoroughbred horse breeding is not dogs. No one looks at "topline, tailset or headpiece" on a Thoroughbred horse.

    You're trying to apply the approach to dog breeding to this conversation and you're only showing your utter ignorance.

    Consider getting off your unwarranted high horse and doing some research about horse conformation, what is considered a fault and how breeders approach breeding to improve conformation faults. Also while you're at it, read up on the effects of Lasix on runners and recovery time.

    Until you do these things? Don't preach on subjects you know NOTHING about. It's vulgar.
  • KMM said:

    It is not owner greed. It is a business decision. As much as we love these horses, they are not pets. They are invested in, sometimes by many parties. Apart from the fun and games of owning a racehorse, one such as Justify is about that investment, and how much his foals will bring commercially, and how successful they will be on the track.

    Absolutely agree.
  • whoodlerwhoodler Member
    edited July 2018
    Breeding is breeding. Genetics and the workings there of, is genetics.
    How much of what is accepted truth about inheritance comes from experiments with plants?
    It matters not the creatures being bred, human, goldfish, snow peas.
    I used topline etc as an example... and horses have toplines and some consider them of importance.
    It matters not which aspect of whatever species you want to improve, it is important to understand that nothing works alone and there are opposites that can create even worse faults.
    Justify has already demonstrated a soundness problem. But that will matter naught to most people because they won't see past TC13.
    And will continue to moan the loss of promising 2 YOs et al because of that type of defect.

    But, hey, he ran 6 good races.
  • I can't see any way in which Justify "stands alongside" Seattle Slew. Seattle Slew was champion two year and champion older horse, on either side of his Triple Crown year. The fact that he lost a few races does absolutely nothing to diminish him. Most great horses with full careers have lost the occasional race. Any horse that has to be retired after just six races to keep him from losing or breaking down just isn't a great horse in my mind. He did run a pretty exciting six races, though. And he's a beautiful horse--no doubt about that.
  • tincuptincup Member
    Hmmm
    When he was two, everyone that followed bafferts two year old string, knew justify was best by lots. All connections agreed to go slow.
    Every race was a shut out.
    A couple of no hitters, a perfect game, some scattered hits....
    I looked for the scenario, the race, the shape, the strategy...anything that would throw him off.
    Nothing worked.
    There's not an older horse that could beat him.
    There's only a couple from the last few years that might.
    Gun runner?....this horse would smash.
    Arrogant?...the best one ?....
    Pharo?
    Chrome?
    Shared belief?
    Put all these in a race...all
    How do you see it running?
    Add ghostzapper....then add one more...
    Zenyattta
    Tell me how this race runs, how this race shapes, how this race ends up.
    At the end of the day, each crop settles and proves the worth of the whole.
    We'll see how good the competition was.
    I looked at every race for
    something to devalue justifys latest effort, but he kept out performing the last.
    He was fastest, longer, than any I remember.
    If no horse is capable of leaning on you...that was the most fascinating aspect.
    And ever since the answer was yes to Virginia, there is a Santa Claus
    And yes, a horse can be perfect
    And a stud can be industry changing
    Justify gets his chance.
    Now, just give us the strength to live and see.
  • RachelRachel Member
    edited July 2018
    Only echoing what articles have stated about Justify.
    jen_bloom said:

    I can't see any way in which Justify "stands alongside" Seattle Slew. Seattle Slew was champion two year and champion older horse, on either side of his Triple Crown year. The fact that he lost a few races does absolutely nothing to diminish him. Most great horses with full careers have lost the occasional race. Any horse that has to be retired after just six races to keep him from losing or breaking down just isn't a great horse in my mind. He did run a pretty exciting six races, though. And he's a beautiful horse--no doubt about that.

  • I think every horse Tincup mentioned would beat Justify. He looked great, against the horses he beat.
  • JulkyJulky Member
    What I weird to me is before the derby everyone said the Derby field was one of the strongest fields ever, now Justify beat a “subpar” crop. I now hear people said he diminished the weight of winning a triple crown. I will only agree with that if we see the same formula win the Triple Crown again. Maybe we will go into another TC drought, or maybe it will take forever for another horse to win the derby, that was not raced at 2. I think it is gonna take the future to define what kinda of winner Justify trully is. One thing if for sure, being a breeder I understand Coolmore. They are dying for a replacement for Scat Daddy. They paid 3 million dollars for Mendelssohn. They really wanna fill that void, Justify check all the boxes. They cannot wait to get that horse in the shed. Who knows, maybe they said we will only pay 75million if you retier him now. Can you imagine the shit show to get everyone in the same page with so many owners? Specially, when some owners only have a stake on his racing career.
  • I hope the horses he ran against DO prove themselves to be good/great against older horses in the future. It will raise my opinion of Justify. I'm still a big Good Magic fan, and I am hoping he wins this weekend, and keeps improving and continues to race as a four year old. Maybe he will get better with age, like Gun Runner did.

    Don't get me wrong.... I like Justify. He's a beautiful chestnut, and he's got a good name. I just don't care for his trainer, or having only a six race career.. What can I say? I'm old. Horse racing should be about horses racing. :p
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