GENETICS IN BREEDING AND PEDIGREE

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  • I thought Lethal White was very rare? Discussion seems to give inappropriate weight to LW as a potential cause of MM18's death.
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited February 2018
    In medical terms...
    Pseudo- means superficially appears or behaves like...but is actually something else.
  • jen_bloomjen_bloom Member
    edited February 2018
    KMM, I think we're all just getting a little mental exercise out of contemplating the genetic possibilities. I didn't mean to suggest that either MM or Curlin was heterozygous for this allele, and you're right that it's highly unlikely, but I still found it interesting to contemplate. My degrees and teaching experience are in humanities/soft social sciences, but I often have thought I missed my real calling because genetics fascinate me. So, that's where I'm coming from.

    @Paniolo_Gal, I think that's a fascinating speculation. Certain recessive genes that are lethal in their homozygous state can have more subtle effects in a heterozygous organism, and sometimes even confer an advantage to the organism, which is why those alleles don't die out in those populations.

    @AllZensonTrack, I'm so sorry to hear about your corgi puppies. What a nightmare, and how upsetting to discover it was because of a choice your neighbor made, I'm sure with no knowledge of the danger.

    Thanks for pointing out Walk in the Sun, @Zenyen. He does look like a centuries-old oil painting of a TB.
  • Thanks everyone for the condolences. Jen-bloom the neighbor suffered far more in losing their unborn grand child as her Daughter was home and pregnant when the lawn was treated and miscarried the child :(
    I sought legal advise to see if I had a suit but sadly because my dogs never walked on their lawn, and no research done on if the chemical could be past on via air born means they said I had no case.
    The last pup from that litter alive is now happily enjoying a spayed and retired life playing Nanny for her grand and great grand pups at my friends house. Sadly, unknown if it is a side effect of the chemical exposure 80% of the surviving litter passed on at way to young and age due to Cancer. 3 of four had spinal issues needing Vet care and 2 surgery for disc issues(They had all been tested for known breed defects in the spine and all proved to be clear of or carriers and not effected). Pups from the first litter lived to be old age 14-16 year olds, no spinal issues and tested clear of the two major spinal issues known in the breed . The company involved had the attitude of "Their JUST dogs" sigh.
  • @AllZensonTrack -- I'm so sorry to hear of all of the losses due to the lawn chemicals. That's horrific. :cry: The most malformed puppy I ever had was basically classic neural tube defects -- she had no hard palate, clubbed tail, and no skull covering her brain, simply membrane. The most awful part is she was born very much alive and it was a rush to put her down humanely in the middle of whelping all of the other puppies (many breeders do this differently). After consulting many reproductive specialists, the conclusion was it was just one of those congenital things that "happens", as Jen_bloom and whoodler have discussed, as there were eight other perfectly fine puppies that I have lived very long lives (they will be 13 in June). It's definitely hard to swallow any loss, but I'm glad we have spurred this discussion, as it's always very interesting to learn from each others' experience and knowledge base, whether it has anything to do with 18MM or not.
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited March 2018
    COLOURED THOROUGHBREDS FROM THE PAST...
    This article entited: "Pinto Thoroughbred Race Horses" falls right in line with our discussion of historic Thoroughbreds who were Sabino or the rarer Frame Overo in coat color. The article mentioned Northern Dancer was a sabino. It also contains a beautiful painting by George Stubbs in the article as well! It is an interesting article to read.
    https://wizzley.com/pinto-thoroughbred-race-horses/

    Below: Lord Grosvenor's Arabian Stallion, born 1767.
    imagePainting by George Stubbs from Wikipedia Commons
  • Very good read and what was even more good reading was the article about The Tetrarch. Interesting enough he was tested for the Sabino gene and proven to NOT have it at all. However some of the names listed of Modern day TB horses is indeed and eye opener with the last Kitten's Joy filly born who has a very unique thing about her almost bald face marking. She has a double swirl of hair colick (most have only one in the center of the forehead).

    Here are the listed names of known great racers who are also Sabino as part the article:
    Other very successful racing sabinos include City Zip, Giant's Causeway, Grundy, Kitten's Joy (minimal sabino, but siring foals with lots of white on legs and face), Leroidesanimaux, Master Command, Palace Music, Purge, Rachel Alexandra, Sunny's Halo, The Minstrel and the well-named Upset, who defeated Man O'War, to name but a few.

    They also talked about the dominant White gene which is a solid white horse usually having dark color eyes. Now I wonder what if anything could be at play with a dominant White gene and a minimal frame Overo and the possible existence of the LW gene causing a Minimal frame overo looking foal who has the problems of a LW foal. More food for thoughts.
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited March 2018
    THE TETRARCH WAS INDEED AN UNUSUAL COLORED GREY!
    Thanks for also bringing up the article about The Tetrarch @AllZensonTrack! I also read it and was very surprised that The Tetrarch was born with a solid chestnut coat with black "Bend Or" spots that turned white as he matured. No wonder the actual tail of The Tetrarch I saw at the Irish National Stud has strands of blonde/brown (chestnut) hairs mixed with white, and soft grey/blackish strands. Fascinating combination of coat colors! If I recall correctly, Ziconic also has a couple of Bend Or spots on his coat. Here is the article for others who are interested:
    https://wizzley.com/the-tetrarch-england-s-spotted-wonder/
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited March 2018
    Here is the other interesting article from the collection which AllZensonTrack might have been referring to:
    DOMINANT WHITE AND EXTREME SABINO IN THOROUGHBRED RACE HORSES
    https://wizzley.com/dominant-white-and-extreme-sabino-in-thoroughbred-race-horses/
    I thought New Zealand's The Opera House was a dominant white but the article mentions she might be an extreme sabino instead. However genetic testing would determine her genetic status as a dominant white.

    Other statements from the DW and Extreme Sabino article:
    ♦ Based on the high percentage of whites being produced (in thoroughbreds), this may be a sign that it is not Dominant White, but a combination of overo and sabino.
    ♦ The most common white in Thoroughbreds is sabino. One copy of the sabino gene can cause just a little white, a white stocking, a blaze, or even white spots coming up from the belly. (Thinking Kitten's Joy, Northern Dancer and Giant's Causeway, etc.)
    ♦Because every Dominant White horse has only one copy of the gene, only about 25 per cent of its offspring are likely to be Dominant White. It is believed that embryos with two copies of the DW gene die early in the mare's pregnancy and are resorbed, as occurs in other species with comparable Dominant White genes.
    ♦Two copies of the sabino gene results in a horse with a lot of extra white, sometimes even completely white. Sabinos always have dark eyes unless they also carry cream or overo — some horses have both pinto genes.
    ♦ Despite the relative few Dominant Whites, with the maximum sabinos added to the mix, the time will come when it is not such a big surprise when a white or wildly spotted Thoroughbred sets foot on a race track.

    A change in colors for TB racing perhaps...
    A bit off topic about the DW or Sabino/Overo Throughbreds..But with Tapit being such a successful sire with grey G1 stakes progeny like Frosted and Cupid entering stud along with Unbridled's Song's Arrogate and Liam's Map, perhaps in the near future, we could be seeing greys out numbering bays/browns and chestnuts on the race track. Just pondering this wild thought. But, I still remember our Greyfecta back in the 2016 Belmont Stakes: Creator, Destin and Lani hitting 1-2-3!
  • It'd be a first if a Gray became a triple Crown winner If I am correct, none have as yet done so?
  • UNFORTUNATELY, FRIZETTE WAS SENT TO SLAUGHTER AT THE END....
    I thought I'd bring up an old Golden Girls review of Frizette and her tragic demise! Here are comments from Golden Girls (page 23) regarding Frizette...
    "Sadly in 1929, at age 24 Frizette was sent to the slaughter house by breeder Marcel Boussac since she was barren for two years in a row, rather then spend the remainder of her life as a well deserved pensioner." :broken_heart:

    "It is sad that Frizette was treated more like a money-making machine rather than a living creature that deserved to be appreciated for all that she did. Sadly, we still deal with this sort of "attitude" and mis-treatment in the racing industry even today." (Thinking about Magna Fortuna (2010) aka "Taxi" and his dam, Silver Option.)
    http://forums.zenyatta.com/discussion/comment/104458/#Comment_104458
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited March 2018

    It'd be a first if a Gray became a triple Crown winner If I am correct, none have as yet done so?

    Yes...no grey Triple Crown winner so far. The closest grey being a triple crown winner (winning 2 out of 3 TC races) were Native Dancer (lost the 1953 Kentucky Derby-his only loss in 22 career starts), Spectacular Bid (lost the 1979 Belmont Stakes) and Silver Charm (lost the 1997 Belmont Stakes).
    https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/The_Top_10_Gray_Horses_of_All_time_123#

    Native Dancer (aka The Grey Ghost) was considered one of the most dominant sires of the 2nd half of the 20th Century.

    Which poses another question...
    Will Tapit (with 16 millionaire progeny and counting) be held in the same "limelight" as Native Dancer for the 21st Century?
    ...I leave it to those with more knowledge in this area...and to the distant future.
  • Here's another question... when comparing progeny earnings, is everything adjusted for inflation?
  • edited March 2018
    Not really genetics but for years in my youth the sayings were quite negative on racing a Grey or a Roan color horse as in those days the Grey coats simply did not run well. Back then you would see a grey racer leap to the front and lead for half the race and then just give it up and end the race 3rd or farther back.

    Today we have some very good quality Grey/Roan stallions who have passed on their hunger for the win. Personally I would love to see our 1st ever Dapple Grey or Roan win a triple crown.

    Ever noticed that each triple Crown winner has alternated the coat color between Chestnut and Bay? If that keeps going our next Triple Crown winner would be a Chestnut.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited March 2018
    Funny thing; I have had the opposite understanding of greys...that there were fewer of them and that they outperformed their bay and Chestnut counterparts. Many, many, many famous greys throughout horseracing history; and today is no different. In my experience and understanding. Greys have always been special to me.
  • I find a nice dapple grey a work of art. My 1st QH rode was a friends mare and her coloring was stunning. I would also think the caliber of greys would be effected by what location you lived in on how well or poorly they ran. I was in Michigan and the line of greys were just mediocre for run ability and few(Very few) were great racers. Now if you are/were in an area with quality greys I would think they would win more then in Michigan. Breeding has a lot to do with it IMHO.
  • Paniolo_GalPaniolo_Gal Member
    edited March 2018
    THE MYSTERY WHITE MARE AT EDITION FARM...WAS IT AN OVERO OR A MUD COVERED GREY?
    Thought I'd move the discussion about the "mystery white pinto mare" I briefly saw in La Verdad's stall at Edition Farm, N.Y. Starting from page 3 thru page 4 of Foaling and Newborn Questions & Comments since this topic is more genetic related.
    http://forums.zenyatta.com/discussion/comment/242766/#Comment_242766
    http://forums.zenyatta.com/discussion/comment/242895/#Comment_242895

    Got it now! @EliRose! Thanks for the clarification! I also looked into the wikipedia link about the American Paint Horse.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Paint_Horse

    So Overo is an overall category with Frame, Sabino and Splash as it's subcategories. Thanks! Love it when I learn something new from the knowledgeable horse people in the forum.

    In hindsight, I should have taken a screen shot of the mare...but I thought it wasn't kosher to do so for privacy reasons.
         Anyway, from what I can remember, below is sort of what the mare looked like. She didn't have a dark grey mane/tail like the grey that shares the paddock with La Verdad that I saw yesterday in the snowy paddock:

    Below: Cool Intentions, A red roan Overo stallion. This is the overall appearance of the mystery white mare (without the medicine hat)... and the mare had a prominent light brown round spot on the left side of her hindquarters near its topline.
    image Photo from Circle JC-weebly-com

    Below: The tail of Delilah, a tobiano/rabicano. This is the ombre coloring on the mystery mare's tail...like a used paint brush.
    image Photo from Painted Tapestry APH-weebly.com

    LOL! But watching from afar on a webcam...for all we know, it might just be a mud covered light grey mare!
  • edited March 2018
    I really think it was the Grey mare who pastures with LV. The day after that Paniolo_gal observed the mystery mare in the foaling stall that the Dapple Grey mare in the field had a huge off colored patch on her left side flank and barrel area. Watching this mare today the spot has been removed by either grooming or snow.
  • MYSTERY WHITE MARE IS PROBABLY LA VERDAD'S GREY PADDOCK BUDDY...
    Yes @AllZensonTrack your deduction makes sense! It's probably the grey paddock buddy for La Verdad. It's hard to judge what a horse looks like from a tiny video image of the horses out in the paddock vs what the same horse looks like under interior lighting while inside a barn...like two completely different horses! The only thing that keeps throwing me off with La Verdad's grey paddock buddy, was the ombre colored tail this grey mare had when inside the foaling stall. Outside in the paddock, her tail looks like a solid colored dark grey. Wouldn't it be interesting if the grey foaled before La Verdad?

    In retrospect, when I visited Brandywine back in 2015, I got to see an April 2014 Colt by Creative Cause out of Goodness Unbridled, now named Unstabled. Unstabled really looked like a pinto with flashy reddish Prince Valiant bangs when he wasn't washed and groomed. See image below:
    image ▲April 2014 colt by Creative Cause out of Goodness Unbridled. Photo taken at Brandywine in 2015

    Below: Here is the same Creative Cause X Goodness Unbridled yearling at the 2015 Keeneland sales..
    image ▲The 2014 Creative Cause x Goodness Unbridled colt really cleaned-up well for the Keeneland Sales! He went for $100,000 in the July 9, 2015 Auction to Calumet Farm. Photo by MH Pitts taken on 7/9/15. From Brandywine's facebook with permission from Pam Robinson.


  • Thanks for sharing those two photos of Unstabled. He sure was a pretty boy when he went through the sale. Out of curiosity I had to look up his racing record. He has one win in ten starts. He was claimed as a three year old for $40,000, gelded at some time, and broke his maiden in a claiming race late in his three year old season last year. His last race was in January of this year, when he finished off the board.
  • KetaKeta Member
    Enticed Bounces Back in ‘Gotham’
    TDN Saturday, March 10, 2018
    Article has race description plus Pedigree Notes on 1, 2, 3
    1–ENTICED, 121, c, 3, by Medaglia d’Oro
    1st Dam: It’s Tricky (MGISW, $1,666,500), by Mineshaft
    http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/enticed-bounces-back-in-gotham/
  • Mystery Mare no longer a Mystery and is foaling some time tonight in La Verdad's foaling stall so can be watched at Foal Patrol under La Verdad's link. It is "It's In His Kiss"
  • Mystery Mare no longer a Mystery and is foaling some time tonight in La Verdad's foaling stall so can be watched at Foal Patrol under La Verdad's link. It is "It's In His Kiss"

    Great! That was good sleuthing work @AllZensonTrack and @Zenyen! I must say It's In His Kiss and other whitish grey horses can really transform themselves with a bit of "make-up" or "mudpacks"! It's In His Kiss looked so different when I first caught a short glimpse of her the other day...she really had a field day outside in the mud/dirt for sure...ended up looking like a pinto!
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