Zenyatta's Waiting Room 2018 (Into Mischief x Zenyatta)

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  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    There are a few theories under various studies and oddly enough they all lean towards maternal involvement in determining sex.

    Some studies, specifically focused on wild horse herds, have produced results that suggest when a mare has access to ready resources and is thriving in body condition, or improving, she's more likely to produce a colt. If she is failing in body condition or stressed for resources, it's more often a filly. The working theory being that plenty of resources suggest the ability for a male to be viable and produce multiple offspring, while a female would still be viable to carry on the genetics, but not as prolific.

    I believe this has also been studied in other wild animal populations with similar results, but I'm too lazy to go looking all that up right now.

    Another study suggests that a stallions X and Y sperm having different survival/speed rates, so the timing of the mare's ovulation to the date she is actually bred plays a factor. One sperm cell type is slower, but has longer motility, while the other is faster but with a shorter motility span.

    Barbaro's dam comes to mind. For the longest time she threw only colts, despite her owners being desperate for a full sister to Barbaro. The one time she was carrying that full sister she also suffered a late term abortion of the foal. Then a couple more colts, until her final two foals were fillies.
  • KMMKMM Member
    edited May 2018
    Good research Zenyen, but still alot factors involved; still a probability--maybe one higher than another statistically. It is kind of like betting; you take in the various odds, and you have your numbers for probable outcomes.
  • BetsyBBetsyB Member
    Zenyen said:

    There are a few theories under various studies and oddly enough they all lean towards maternal involvement in determining sex.

    Some studies, specifically focused on wild horse herds, have produced results that suggest when a mare has access to ready resources and is thriving in body condition, or improving, she's more likely to produce a colt. If she is failing in body condition or stressed for resources, it's more often a filly. The working theory being that plenty of resources suggest the ability for a male to be viable and produce multiple offspring, while a female would still be viable to carry on the genetics, but not as prolific.

    I believe this has also been studied in other wild animal populations with similar results, but I'm too lazy to go looking all that up right now.

    Another study suggests that a stallions X and Y sperm having different survival/speed rates, so the timing of the mare's ovulation to the date she is actually bred plays a factor. One sperm cell type is slower, but has longer motility, while the other is faster but with a shorter motility span.

    Barbaro's dam comes to mind. For the longest time she threw only colts, despite her owners being desperate for a full sister to Barbaro. The one time she was carrying that full sister she also suffered a late term abortion of the foal. Then a couple more colts, until her final two foals were fillies.

    As always, thanks for the information, Zenyen. Interesting stuff.
  • So that I won't go off topic here where our current discussion is based on documented research...I've posted a couple of other "fun non-scientific methods" on foal sex prediction in the Foaling and Newborn Questions & Comments thread...
  • edited May 2018
    Lets not forget that so far the theory of Lefty= Colt and righty = Filly has been 100% accurate in every foal born on Foal patrol AND with Colerful Bride Before she was ultra sounded her Vet said by her way of carrying I would say she is having a filly LONG before they ultra sounded her to confirm the foals gender.

    Even with Zenyatta in the past in the waiting rooms many said by the way she is carrying I say it is a Colt(or Filly in the Z-15 and Z-17 rooms) and 100% of the time her foal was exactly what they predicted using just the observations of how Zenny was carrying her foal.

    So even though only one study we have many other observations viewed in at least two other situations.
  • EliRoseEliRose Member

    Lets not forget that so far the theory of Lefty= Colt and righty = Filly has been 100% accurate in every foal born on Foal patrol AND with Colerful Bride Before she was ultra sounded her Vet said by her way of carrying I would say she is having a filly LONG before they ultra sounded her to confirm the foals gender.

    Even with Zenyatta in the past in the waiting rooms many said by the way she is carrying I say it is a Colt(or Filly in the Z-15 and Z-17 rooms) and 100% of the time her foal was exactly what they predicted using just the observations of how Zenny was carrying her foal.

    So even though only one study we have many other observations viewed in at least two other situations.

    That's anecdotal evidence.
  • Well it is still interesting that by just looking at the way a foal sits inside a mare can be a source for figuring out gender before it arrives. I thought it was phew too when I first saw the comment and the study but I just pulled out the pictures of my own Mare when she was about 3 weeks out of foaling and she was definitely way right sided and yes she foaled a filly. Wish I had known this theory back then as I was not looking forward to the cost to geld a colt which would have been done since I had no plans of putting the foal at stud.
  • Springsmom83Springsmom83 Member
    edited May 2018
    Went back and looked at pictures of my mare and she was opposite both times. Right sided was the colt, left sided was the filly. She was an interesting girl in all aspects so that would make sense for her. But with the colt I do remember people saying it was a filly because of how the mare carried.
  • Nice conversations about carrying the foal left or right and the outcomes. If they breed Zenny next year again I will carefully watch her growing belly :) And if they will I hope it will be War Front one more time. Cant shake off this feeling that Z Princess would have been successful on the track that feisty little ting would have been a runner.
    Overall Zenny's broodmare record isn't bad at all
    She delivered 4 healthy foals
    and had bad luck with Z16 and Z18
    She looks good from what i can see from the blog and I am sure her owners will reevaluate her carefully before breeding her again next year. Zenny is and always will be the most important one!
  • Crazy4ZCrazy4Z Member
    bleubetty said:

    New blog post is short and concise with a thank you to Zenyatta's fans. She looks healthy and as beautiful as ever. That works for me .....

    Me, tooi!

  • Sunny2911, I totally agree with what you're saying. Yesterday I randomly looked at stakes producing mares in the May 5 edition of the Blood Horse. If a horse wins a stakes race, they go into intricate detail about the family line. In a random sample of the stakes winners' mothers for that week, it looked like although these mares all produced one stakes winner, their other foals were most often nonwinners, unraced, or the mares were barren or lost a foal. Even if the stakes producing mare had other winning offspring, they often just won one race, or only earned a few thousand dollars. Remember these are the best -- stakes producing mares. And most of their records look just like Zenny's.
  • Does anyone think there is even the smallest of chances that Zeny will be bred in 2018 for a 2019 foal? I just read under Foal Watch 2018 that Courting Destiny was bred last year on June 13, foaled her 2018 filly on May 18 and is being bred back for a 2019 foal. Is two months, or so, enough time to clear up the infection for a June breeding?
  • WezzieWezzie Member
    Yes and yes.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member

    Does anyone think there is even the smallest of chances that Zeny will be bred in 2018 for a 2019 foal? I just read under Foal Watch 2018 that Courting Destiny was bred last year on June 13, foaled her 2018 filly on May 18 and is being bred back for a 2019 foal. Is two months, or so, enough time to clear up the infection for a June breeding?

    Anything is possible.

    If the vets feel that they were able to clear the source of the placentitis and that it would be beneficial/vital to her reproductive health to breed her, then they might. I know in dogs at least that if a bitch suffers pyometra (infection of the uterus) and the decision is to treat not spay, if the treatment works then the advised course of action is to breed on the next cycle.

    I have no idea if it would be a similar situation, JUST saying that it would be one scenario where the decision would be to breed Zenyatta.

    If there is no medical reason TO breed her then, I'd think they'd leave her open to get the weight off her and reset her breeding schedule.

    However, she's 14 now. With an open year she would not foal again until she was 16 which is definitely a different scenario than leaving her open back when she was 10.

    There are a lot of factors that will go into the decision, including who's book they could get on at this short date?
  • Since this is ALL hypothetical...

    Zeny is given the "all clear" health-wise. What would you do? The reality that she would not foal again until she is 16, if left open for 2019, is something for cause for pause. Take all the what if/might happen scenarios out of this hypothetical...we know that noting is predictable or a sure thing, only consider "she is given a clean bill of health".

    Now forget what any of us would do....considering what we think we know of Jerry Moss, it just seems like a possibility.

  • KMMKMM Member
    If she were deemed healthy, I'd go for it.
  • ZenyenZenyen Member
    IF she were deemed healthy, both in terms of weight and reproductive health, AND I intended to continue her broodmare career, yes I'd breed her this year. But only one cover. If she caught and settled then thumbs up, if she didn't catch or reabsorbed I would not try to send her back for another cover.
  • I predict that we won't know one way or the other until she either foals or doesn't next year.
  • LionessLioness Member
    jen_bloom said:

    I predict that we won't know one way or the other until she either foals or doesn't next year.

    Last year it leaked online that she was bred, not coming from the blog. I'm sure it will again if she is. I don't expect a blog announcement one way or the other though.
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